Edna Greene Medford Interview: Abraham Lincoln's Evolving Views on Slavery 2022

Edna Greene Medford Interview: Abraham Lincoln's Evolving Views on Slavery

Kunhardt Film Foundation

31.7K subscribers

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263,942 views  Jul 12, 2022  #kunhardtfilmfoundation

Historian Edna Greene Medford discusses family separation among enslaved people, Abraham Lincoln’s difficult childhood and his southern roots. Medford examines the Emancipation Proclamation’s impact and its promise of freedom.

Edna Greene Medford was educated at Hampton Institute (now Hampton University) in Virginia, the University of Illinois Urbana, and the University of Maryland College Park, where she received her PhD in United States history. She is currently a professor in the Department of History in the College of Arts and Sciences at Howard University where she has also served as chair of the Department. Specializing in nineteenth-century African-American history, she teaches courses in the Jacksonian Era, Civil War and Reconstruction, and African-American History to 1877. Medford has served as the Director for History of New York’s African Burial Ground Project and edited the volume Historical Perspectives of the African Burial Ground: New York Blacks and the Diaspora. She has published numerous articles and book chapters on African Americans, especially during the era of the Civil War. Her books include Lincoln and Emancipation (2015). She was the 2009 special bicentennial recipient of the Order of Lincoln, an award given by the state of Illinois, for her scholarship on the president.

The Apple TV+ series "Lincoln's Dilemma," features insights from journalists, educators and scholars, as well as rare archival materials, that offer a more nuanced look into the life of the Great Emancipator. Set against the background of the Civil War, "Lincoln's Dilemma" also gives voice to the narratives of enslaved people, shaping a more complete view of an America divided over issues including economy, race and humanity, and underscoring Lincoln's battle to save the country, no matter the cost. The series is narrated by award-winning actor Jeffrey Wright ("Angels in America") and features the voices of actor Bill Camp ("The Night Of") as Lincoln and Leslie Odom Jr. ("Hamilton") as Frederick Douglas.

Subscribe for access to hours of personal memories and lessons from some of the most influential people of our time. Kunhardt Film Foundation is a not-for-profit educational media organization that produces documentary films, interviews, and teaching tools about the people and ideas that shape our world. Learn more about our work and how to support our mission: http://www.kunhardtfilmfoundation.org 

Follow us on Instagram:  

 / kunhardtfilmfoundation  

To view the entire series please visit: 

https://tv.apple.com/us/show/lincolns...

Edna Greene Medford, Historian, Howard University

Interview Date: December 1, 2020

Interviewed by: Jackie Olive and Barak Goodman

© Apple Video Programming, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

#EdnaGreeneMedford #kunhardtfilmfoundation

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Edna Greene Medford Interview: Abraham Lincoln's Evolving Views on Slavery

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263,942 views  Jul 12, 2022  #kunhardtfilmfoundation

Historian Edna Greene Medford discusses family separation among enslaved people, Abraham Lincoln’s difficult childhood and his southern roots. Medford examines the Emancipation Proclamation’s impact and its promise of freedom.

Edna Greene Medford was educated at Hampton Institute (now Hampton University) in Virginia, the University of Illinois Urbana, and the University of Maryland College Park, where she received her PhD in United States history. She is currently a professor in the Department of History in the College of Arts and Sciences at Howard University where she has also served as chair of the Department. Specializing in nineteenth-century African-American history, she teaches courses in the Jacksonian Era, Civil War and Reconstruction, and African-American History to 1877. Medford has served as the Director for History of New York’s African Burial Ground Project and edited the volume Historical Perspectives of the African Burial Ground: New York Blacks and the Diaspora. She has published numerous articles and book chapters on African Americans, especially during the era of the Civil War. Her books include Lincoln and Emancipation (2015). She was the 2009 special bicentennial recipient of the Order of Lincoln, an award given by the state of Illinois, for her scholarship on the president.

The Apple TV+ series "Lincoln's Dilemma," features insights from journalists, educators and scholars, as well as rare archival materials, that offer a more nuanced look into the life of the Great Emancipator. Set against the background of the Civil War, "Lincoln's Dilemma" also gives voice to the narratives of enslaved people, shaping a more complete view of an America divided over issues including economy, race and humanity, and underscoring Lincoln's battle to save the country, no matter the cost. The series is narrated by award-winning actor Jeffrey Wright ("Angels in America") and features the voices of actor Bill Camp ("The Night Of") as Lincoln and Leslie Odom Jr. ("Hamilton") as Frederick Douglas.

Subscribe for access to hours of personal memories and lessons from some of the most influential people of our time. Kunhardt Film Foundation is a not-for-profit educational media organization that produces documentary films, interviews, and teaching tools about the people and ideas that shape our world. Learn more about our work and how to support our mission: http://www.kunhardtfilmfoundation.org 

Follow us on Instagram:  

 / kunhardtfilmfoundation  

To view the entire series please visit: 

https://tv.apple.com/us/show/lincolns...

Edna Greene Medford, Historian, Howard University

Interview Date: December 1, 2020

Interviewed by: Jackie Olive and Barak Goodman

© Apple Video Programming, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

#EdnaGreeneMedford #kunhardtfilmfoundation

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View all

Transcript

Follow along using the transcript.

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61 Comments

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@orvillewooten6982

@orvillewooten6982

1 year ago (edited)

Love her excellence….education is a must…..thank you, Edna…!

19

Reply

@andreagross2007

@andreagross2007

5 months ago

This is a wonderful and educational podcast.   I enjoyed listening to you Dr Edna

16

Reply

1 reply

@ajcbng8289

@ajcbng8289

2 months ago

This is a fantastic explanation of one of the most consequential times in recorded human-- not just American history. There have been and continue to be some who would rather none of us would hear. As always, thank you PBS.

11

Reply

@waywardboi

@waywardboi

2 months ago

How  could people be so ugly and say in the same breath that they have a love for a God? I've never gotten that. she brought me to tears. This never be forgotten, and public schools need to be fixed and run by EDUCATORS.

18

Reply

1 reply

@BaronessFahrenheit

@BaronessFahrenheit

6 months ago

Wonderful, extremely knowledgeable, a pleasure to listen to. I learned so much!

10

Reply

@reenougle

@reenougle

6 months ago

Thank you Dr. Medford for your excellent talk about a complex man.  Lincoln was a man, not a saint, and it is so impressive for him, as you said, to have overcome his upbringing and original beliefs and to do the right thing.

9

Reply

@victoriachase9550

@victoriachase9550

2 months ago

Wow, this is excellent!!!!

9

Reply

@kerrybyers257

@kerrybyers257

3 weeks ago

What an excellent story teller. Just excellent.

Reply

@Reggieftl1

@Reggieftl1

2 months ago

This was a treat. Thank you so much.

6

Reply

@josephfreedman9422

@josephfreedman9422

4 months ago (edited)

I appreciate her nuanced view of Lincoln.  I'd never heard him called, "a son of the South", which is something to think about.  And perhaps that is why he assumed that the Southerners felt as he did about the Union and would not leave it (during the Secession Winter of 1860-1).   She has a lowkey manner (which I like) and the more I listen, the more I appreciate her brilliant insights.

12

Reply

@Whalee39

@Whalee39

6 months ago (edited)

This should be playing continuously at the National Museum of African American History and Culture in D.C.

14

Reply

1 reply

@erickalucas5660

2 months ago

Exceptional in your analysis 🙌🏽I learned so much ❤

5

Reply

@lisas3825

2 months ago

More than a great deal of tension after the war, there was an intensifying issue of domestic terrorism against Black peoples.

6

Reply

@zedstar0

2 days ago

Frederick Douglass, was of particular interest to me having been Educated at an Historic Royal Boarding School, in N. Ireland (Alum inc. O. Wilde, S. Beckett...)!  So, learning about his Mural, and that the same "Slavers" had just changed the term "Slavery", to "Indentured Servant"! The Irish, Chinese, East Indians were but a few of these "not Slaves" this insidious trick an example of which continues to date, was re-naming "Bribery" to "Lobbying"! Unfortunately, It does continue up to today,🙏 Edna! Wonderful eloquent delivery!🕉

Reply

@StampNStitch

6 months ago

Well said!!

5

Reply

@davidwatson8126

1 month ago (edited)

Lincoln did not have the authority to declare Blacks free. It would have been unconstitutional. Lincoln’s brilliance was in navigating the legal constraints he faced. He is unique in the world for what he accomplished. She seems to think he could rule like a king. She is wrong. And she misleads you when speaking as though he had that power.  She is mistaken to judge him for lacking that power. Her lovely tone does not excuse her ignorance on this critical fact that Lincoln’s options were heavily constrained.

Reply

@adamb.9968

2 months ago (edited)

How about those “animals” that slaves were treated like? These are sentient beings with  emotional lives and we use the exact same justifications to treat them barbarically as was used for enslaving and brutalizing Black people. I am not diminishing the horror of American slavery or the dignity of its victims with this remark, but asking sensitive people to extend their compassion further yet. Peace.

Reply

1 reply

@tedwards9461

7 months ago

My only criticisms are 1) The north's opposition to slavery had little to do with morality.  It was about eliminating slave owners from competing with poor whites for the land.  Although the north was more industrialized than the south, well over 90% of the norths population were farmers. Abolitionists only made up about 5% of the norths population.  This should have been emphasized more.  It was about self interest, self interest,  self interest.  2) Males like having sex.  The ability of white men to rape a whole class of women without the risk of being arrested or be concerned about any child produced is huge.  This was true before and well after the war.  What was the class of slave that white men paid the highest price for ... attractive light skinned girls.  A high percentage of white children, boys, men raped black girls of all ages as was in their self interest.

5

Reply

4 replies

@lancezenner6177

5 days ago

Lol, The very premis that you must agree to be civil with your comments says everything you need to know on this convient bias of historical opinion.  

Nobody should condone vulgar expressions of verbage and goes without any reasonable understanding of what determines an intellectual conversation.  

But I whole heartedly disagree with her comments that the current parties have switched or changed directions as it is concerned with the topic of racism.  

That clearly a far left oolitical opinion that lacks several facts.  

Please explain how avoiding the foundations set forth on the constitution is more of a modern day Democratic principle?  

Its the Democratic party of recent times that have ignored much of what it actually means to support equal opportunities.  

You can find contradictions among all people throughout history from every culture and society.  Including the minority culture and this is not an isolated attribute to a single solitary president during a civil War.  

The level of arrogance to bunch people only into groups by ethnicity continues to fail.  Its the merry go round that never ends.

Reply

@tugger

6 months ago

thank you edna greene

4

Reply

Transcript

Search in video

0:00

professor edna green medford interview take one marker second six

0:15

slavery had always been a divider in the nation from from its very founding

0:21

actually and so as time passed it became even more contentious

0:27

because even though slavery had existed throughout the nation both in the north

0:32

and the south the north decided to rid itself of the institution

0:38

after uh the american revolution not because northern men and women had any great

0:45

feelings for people of african descent but because they'd already made their money from the slave trade

0:52

and they were more industrialized and they were going in a different direction than the agricultural south

0:58

and so they were able to rid themselves of slavery most of the states gradually

1:03

but certainly by the 1830s slavery had pretty much ended in the north with the

1:08

exception of a few pockets the south was different because the south was an agricultural area

1:15

and they felt that they needed the labor of enslaved people that that was the

1:20

cheapest way to go and that it was a more effective labor system but what

1:26

that did was it divided the nation in half because you had in congress people who were attempting to pass

1:33

legislation that was more advantageous to an industrial kind of

1:40

region versus people who trying to pass legislation that's uh more um

1:46

agricultural that that's that's certainly advantageous to to agricultural production and so this

1:52

whole tussle about slavery had nothing to do

1:57

with the humanitarian aspects of it it had to do with the economic so i think

2:02

we have to say first and foremost that it's not that you've got good white men

2:08

and women in the north who care about black people they are the same

2:13

but they simply have different economic interests

2:22

i think at the very beginning of the nation many people realize the contradiction

2:29

between slavery and the equality espoused by the founding fathers and by

2:35

americans in general but they saw it at least south did the south

2:41

saw it as a necessary evil they needed the labor they said if they were going to

2:48

work the plantations and the farms that changes however

2:56

as we get into the 19th century by the

3:02

1830s especially there's a turning point and people uh southerners

3:10

are seeing slavery as a positive good and so they justify

3:16

the the that that whole idea of the founding fathers and equality and the

3:22

fact that they're still holding human beings enslaved by saying that well maybe they're not quite human you know

3:30

maybe they're different from us they are the other uh look what we did we went to

3:35

the african continent and we pulled these barbaric people out of the continent and we brought them

3:41

to america and we gave them civilization and so if they're working for us

3:48

if we're selling their children if we're selling their wives away doesn't matter in the long run it's

3:56

beneficial to them and it's beneficial to us so it's almost like it is like

4:01

kipling's the white man's burden you know the white man goes to africa and rescues these people brings them back to

4:07

america and so it's very much seen as a positive good and the south also sees

4:13

itself as superior to the north because they have this labor force that will

4:19

allow them to think deep thoughts and you know they are just much more refined

4:25

than our northerners who are actually are wedded to

4:31

a free labor system and they even argue that free laborers are treated so much

4:37

worse than enslaved people because slave enslaved people are actually family

4:43

that's the argument that they convince themselves of enslaved people are happy they're

4:51

carefree they don't have any civilization except for what white men and women gave them they don't love

4:57

their families the same way white men and women do they are a burden it's they're more a

5:04

burden than they are any kind of advantage to the south they really convinced themselves of that but

5:11

at the same time they were afraid to go to sleep at night because they understood that there was the possibility of a slave revolt

5:24

slavery is not one thing uh throughout time or or throughout

5:32

the country it depends upon the region it depends upon the time that we're talking about it depends upon

5:38

the kind of labor so you might have uh enslaved people in an urban area who are

5:45

actually living by themselves or living with a free black family they're enslaved but they actually have a bit of

5:52

freedom and as long as they take that money that they've earned to their owners periodically then they're okay

6:00

they're they're able to live almost independently of their owners but if you're on a plantation or if

6:08

you're on a farm it's very different because you've got that interaction with

6:13

either the owner or the overseer which can be even worse because that's a daily

6:18

kind of interaction and so you can expect to be beaten if you don't work

6:24

hard enough you can expect that you're going to be separated from your family

6:29

it happens all of the time people get sold down the river as they say meaning

6:35

soul to the deep south and they never see each other again it's heartbreaking

6:40

to look at some of the the primary sources and see how desperately people tried to find each other once slavery

6:47

was over they spent a lot of time on the road trying to find their families trying to re-establish them it's just

6:54

heartbreaking stories but in terms of labor if they're on the plantation they're getting up before dawn they're

7:01

going into the fields they're working until 10 or so they get something to eat at that point they go back into the

7:07

fields if they're engaged in harvest then they're working very very long

7:13

hours so it's not unusual to be working 18 hours a day if you're bringing in the

7:19

harvest whippings are are just are very common brandings can be common people

7:26

get a foot chopped off or a hand chopped off as punishment

7:31

it's a horrific situation but i think the worst part of slavery whether you're

7:37

in an urban environment or you're you're in a rural environment or you're working

7:43

on the docks or you're working on the plantation it's the separation of families it's not about the number of

7:48

whippings you get it's not about the exploitation of your labor it's about the separation of families

7:55

what is also horrific is that black men and women cannot protect their

8:01

own families because their families belong to the owners and that means in

8:07

every sense of the word so an african-american woman is subject to

8:12

sexual assault not just from her white owner but from his friends from the neighbors

8:20

from his relatives whoever is there feels that they have license to uh

8:26

assault black women and sometimes they're assaulted by their own men as

8:31

well and so it is especially difficult to be a woman in slavery and and

8:36

especially because women who are of childbearing age are expected

8:42

to have children but continue to work into the fields up to the time that they're delivering

8:54

the resistance movement began long before african people left the continent

9:00

africans were were resisting slave catchers and slave traders in

9:06

their villages as some boats were going up the rivers they were attacking them

9:12

and on board the ships during the middle passage they are resisting as well and

9:18

of course when they get to america they continue to resist we sometimes think

9:24

that there were no slave revolts in the united states because we have so

9:29

many of them happening in the caribbean where black people are in the

9:35

vastly in the majority and that's never the case uh in the united states except

9:40

in a couple of states but we have resistance to slavery

9:46

among african americans uh as early as the 1600s certainly by 1712

9:54

we've got a revolt in new york we've got another conspiracy in

10:02

1741 in new york we have the stono revolt in

10:09

1739 in south carolina and of course when we enter the national period

10:16

we have our resistance to slavery through gabriel's revolt in 1800 in

10:22

richmond and nat turner's revolt in 1831 in southampton county

10:28

virginia and we have individuals who are suing for their freedom uh in the during

10:35

the american revolution and in the wake of the revolution and so by the 1830s

10:41

when the abolitionist movement becomes better organized and societies are

10:47

formed you have black men and women very actively involved there as well you've

10:53

got the garrisonians black people are joining that organization the american anti-slavery society

10:59

you've got african-american abolitionists going to europe and

11:05

lecturing about slavery in the united states and raising funds to help the

11:10

abolitionist movement you've got black women involved in the abolitionist movement we spend so much time talking

11:17

about sojourner truth and harriet tubman as we should because these were extraordinary black women but there were

11:24

many other black women who were involved as well and not just as ancillary as peripheral people these are

11:32

folk who are writing and they're actually contributing to

11:37

the liberator the anti-slavery newspaper of william lloyd garrison they're

11:42

writing uh and they're sending is making contributions to the anglo-african in

11:48

new york and the christian recorder and other black newspapers they're going on

11:53

the lecture circuit are both at home and abroad and abroad and so they're raising

11:59

funds for the cause they're doing a variety of things they're writing poetry

12:04

uh they're writing anti-slavery tracks so women are not just sitting sitting by

12:10

the wayside um waiting for men to do the job and that's extraordinary because this is a

12:16

period where the cult of domesticity exists where the role of women is

12:22

supposed to be in the household taking care of the children they're not supposed to be on the lecture circuit

12:29

and these black women are out there doing that white women are as well but it's extraordinary for black women

12:36

because black women certainly are not respected and they're not they certainly aren't expected to be out there lecturing or

12:43

writing but they're doing it and they're very influential

12:52

the domestic uh slave trade was at its height uh in the

12:59

1820s and through the 1840s and 50s and in some instances people were shipped

13:06

southward you know the idea of being sold down the river it meant going from the upper south to the lower south from

13:13

places like virginia and maryland to places like georgia and mississippi

13:19

alabama uh texas and so there were instances however when

13:24

people were transported across land in koffels even if they were transported by by sea

13:32

once they were on back on land they could also be transported across

13:38

land and so they were chained together uh and it was the most horrific site for

13:44

people who had any kind of humanity at all so you had adults sometimes you had

13:51

children in those couples as well and so to me the tragedy is not so much how

13:58

they were transported but what they left behind these were these were families that were destroyed people never saw

14:05

their children their wives their husbands again and so when we talk about the horrors of

14:12

slavery we need to look at that we need to look at the separation after the war

14:17

the first thing african americans did was try to reunite their families so they were on the roads constantly not

14:24

because they were lazy and they didn't want to work but because they were trying to find husbands and wives

14:30

parents looking for their children and in many instances they were simply not

14:35

able to reunite with family members who had been sold away chattel slavery was a business like any

14:44

other even though the commodity was human beings uh people were held

14:51

in pens the same way you would animals uh they were sold away

14:57

mothers babies were snatched out of their arms as the mother was sold away

15:04

there was the horror of knowing that at the beginning of the

15:10

year after the celebration of christmas at the beginning of the year the

15:15

expectation was that someone would be sold away and you never knew who that

15:21

would be and so black people were in constant fear of being separated

15:27

of having their freedom reduced even more because someone was an owner was a

15:33

gambler and he may have gambled away his enslaved laborers at least some of

15:39

them are you had instances of course of people dying and their enslaved population was

15:46

divided among their heirs so black people never could

15:52

be comfortable in knowing that they would always be together that their children would not

15:58

be sold away that their husbands would not be sold away it was one of the most heinous aspects

16:05

of their enslavement it was a business institution

16:11

and it was governed by how much profit could be made

16:17

and that was truly part of the tragedy

16:26

trade journals benefited the owners to the extent that it helped them

16:35

ensure that their property would be productive and that the property would not resist

16:42

their enslavement and so any indications of how to treat uh an

16:49

enslaved person to get them to work harder but without endangering their lives was

16:56

something that was not humanitarian it was wasn't anything that was to really benefit the enslaved person but to get

17:03

more work out of the human property and to ensure that

17:08

they would resist their enslavement as little as possible and actually

17:14

i don't think that those journals really mattered that much because

17:20

any owner would have understood how to uh deal with his enslaved

17:26

laborers i'm always struck by the the willy lynch letter where uh

17:32

supposedly someone had discovered this letter from a west indian in the 1700s

17:38

trying to instruct uh american planters on how to deal with their enslaved

17:45

laborers and how to divide black people first of all the letter never rang true

17:51

to me it made absolutely no sense the language was really strange for that time period but also planters didn't

17:58

have to be instructed on how to punish their enslaved laborers they knew

18:03

because they grew up in the system so they understood what would work and what would not work they didn't need anyone

18:10

from the outside to tell them how to deal with people that they saw not as human beings but it's property

18:17

i'm sure that those journals existed you know to benefit some planters but

18:23

they really had no purpose because i i just don't see how they would have assisted an owner and getting

18:30

more productivity out of his labors they already assumed that the way you do it

18:35

is to beat them half to death or to separate them punish them by separating them from their families or by maiming

18:42

them they had already established their own practices long before these journals existed

18:48

now i think the journals were useful in terms of the farming advice

18:55

that they gave there were journals in the in the 30s uh to the 50s and into

19:00

the 60s that talked about how you can get the most out of your land because

19:06

you know as we recall land at least in the upper south was already depleted because of over

19:13

production so there it the land was exhausted there were no nutrients there

19:18

nutrients had to be put back in the soil uh owners uh plant planters had to allow

19:24

the land to lay fallow for a while or to plant clover there or to use bat guano

19:32

to fertilize it so those journals would have been very important for that kind of instruction

19:40

but i don't know that they were really that useful in terms of

19:45

teaching planters how to handle their enslaved laborers

19:55

we sometimes think that because the majority of african-americans did

20:01

not have voting rights in the period but in the antebellum period uh specifically

20:07

that there was no political voice and that's not true because people are able

20:15

to express themselves politically and many other ways other than just by

20:20

voting and so in terms of their involvement in the abolitionist movement

20:25

they're on the anti-slavery lecture circuit they're traveling all over the north they're not going to the south but

20:31

they're traveling all over the north are campaigning against slavery but they're

20:36

doing more than that it's not just about ending slavery it's about elevating

20:42

their positions to that of white men and women as well so people who are already

20:47

free are pushing for that equality so they are concerned that they can't ride on

20:54

the street cars in the same way you know they have to be on the outside even if it's inclement weather they can't get

21:01

inside of the streetcar they can't send their children to schools in the north in many instances

21:08

that are in an integrated way they don't have access to jobs uh they don't have

21:15

to some of the better jobs they don't have ex uh access to uh decent housing

21:21

in many instances so they are pressing for those kinds of

21:26

things they're doing it in terms of speeches douglas certainly is constantly

21:34

talking about those kinds of things not just slavery but equal rights as well

21:40

they're trying to make america live up to the tenants that they

21:46

that it claims you know were important uh to to the founding of the nation

21:52

uh you have women who are very much involved in that political movement as well

21:58

so you've got black women writing just as black men are although we don't

22:05

know a lot about them we have to dig sometimes but because of the scholarship

22:10

in the last 10 or 15 years in women's studies especially in women's

22:15

history we are uncovering those kinds of things you have black men who are speaking from

22:22

the pulpit who had newspapers you know they're publishing in newspapers you're

22:28

having people write into newspapers uh there's all of this agitation going

22:34

on and in fact since the 1830s you have a negro

22:39

convention movement where they are meeting nationally to discuss the issues that

22:47

affect black america that's a political movement to me they're involved in um in party politics

22:55

you know the liberty party for instance where they can vote you know they are voting there are very few of them who

23:01

are voting but where they can they do but they are all of these ways in which

23:06

they are very much involved in a political movement

23:15

lincoln is saying that the country was founded on the principle that all people

23:21

were created equal and that included people of color as well now he didn't mean by that that

23:29

african-americans or native americans for that matter were equal to white men he didn't believe that was the case but

23:36

he believed that everybody should have equality of opportunity

23:42

historians use the phrase when they're describing lincoln's

23:47

ideas about equality is that lincoln believed that everybody had the right to rise

23:53

and slavery could not allow you to rise and so that's the argument he's trying

23:59

to make that the nation was founded on this principle of equality for all

24:04

people and so when you put yourself out there to the world

24:10

saying we are a democracy where everybody's treated equally or everyone

24:15

has the same opportunity to rise but you are holding people enslaved

24:21

you're making a lie of your founding principles and he sees that as as a very

24:26

difficult thing to deal with he calls slavery a monstrous institution he

24:32

recognizes it is not what the country should be involved in

24:37

but he doesn't believe he's not somebody who believes in equality the way we think of equality

24:49

lincoln had a very difficult childhood because he had a father who was illiterate who didn't care about education at all

24:57

and lincoln was a child who cared everything about education i mean he worked hard you know he had a very

25:03

strong work ethic but he also had an intellectual side and it was something his father could never understand and so

25:11

his father did hire him out to people to work and you

25:16

know lincoln did think of himself in some way as as enslaved but i think we

25:22

put too much attention on that i i think that when when historians argue that

25:27

lincoln cared so much about slavery was because he had been enslaved in a

25:33

way himself not all children are being exploited by their parents during that

25:38

period not just lincoln it's not something that's uncommon lincoln may have been

25:45

a bit sensitive more sensitive than others because connected with that idea

25:51

of him his labor being exploited was that he was being denied in education so

25:56

i think the two have to go hand in hand

26:04

lincoln had always been someone who cared first and foremost about

26:11

preservation of the union he was so thoroughly wedded to the constitution

26:16

and he didn't see any way out if you're going to follow the constitution you have to be aware that

26:23

enslaved people of property and you cannot mess with people's property and it does sound cruel to us today to look

26:30

back at that and say you know he chose the nation

26:36

over human rights it's what he did and that's hard

26:42

to take but when you read more and more about his beliefs his actions it makes a bit

26:50

of sense you know lincoln has always been an enigma and he will always be an

26:55

enigma he is one of the most complex historical figures i've ever studied

27:01

and you know there are people who've started him for much longer than i have and they haven't figured him out yet and

27:07

i thought you know i remember years ago i thought i got this guy i know exactly what he's about and i open another

27:14

document and i see something totally different so he's a man i think who's really

27:20

struggling with the constitution he's struggling with his own value

27:25

system but a lot of times that that connection to the constitution

27:32

overrides everything else and we can't forget that about him it's

27:38

a part of who he was

27:45

lincoln is not only late to the idea that enslaved laborers should be

27:52

confiscated he really does not like it he thinks it's against the constitution because

27:58

this is private property and you can't take people's property without compensating them and so in his plans in

28:06

each plan he's talking about the delaware plan these people are going to be compensate compensated for the loss

28:11

of their labors if they had been willing to accept his plan when he's talking about other instances uh even with the

28:19

the preliminary emancipation uh of our emancipation proclamation of 1862 of

28:26

september 1862 lincoln is talking about compensation and only when the confederacy declines

28:35

to take him up on his offer does he on january 1st 1863 declare that

28:41

these people are free and nobody gets compensated but they also get

28:47

compensated in the district of columbia in april of 1862 but that's not lincoln's efforts that's that's

28:52

congressional effort there because washington is under the purview of of

29:00

congress it is not a state and so congress can decide what's going to happen there but

29:06

lincoln is very uncomfortable about taking private property and not

29:12

compensating people for it or not allowing them to have a say in it

29:17

i mean his his plan was four-pronged if you're going to emancipate it has to be

29:22

gradual it has to be with the consent of the local people that there has to be compensation for

29:30

the owners nothing for the enslaved people who've been doing this forever

29:35

but compensation to the owners and oh by the way colonization

29:40

because we've got to take them out of the country not because not so much because they

29:47

don't deserve to be in the country but because lincoln probably understood

29:53

white men and women better than most that they were not going to abide

29:58

living side by side with black men and women so he thought it would be a major

30:03

problem the problem was though his solution his solution was remove black people

30:10

not try to talk your people into understanding that black people had a right to be in this

30:17

country as much as they did if not more so because black people

30:22

built the country in many instances but he didn't see it that way he thought that they should simply be asked to

30:29

leave

30:36

well i think we first have to remember that lincoln was a son of the south his he may have been born in kentucky on

30:43

the frontier and he may have moved to indiana and then on to illinois but he was a son of

30:51

the south with the same kinds of southern sensibilities as all of many

30:57

other southern men and women for that matter many northern men and women because the attitude during that period

31:04

was that black people are inferior now what lincoln did recognize he he thought

31:09

that black people were inferior but he says it wasn't because it's an innate inferiority it's because of slavery it's

31:17

because of what slavery had done to people but you know he really did see an

31:23

inferiority there he was able to make this distinctions however i don't think he ever saw frederick douglass as

31:29

inferior he recognized that douglas was right in his league if not more so

31:35

because douglas was better traveled than lincoln lincoln never went to europe or

31:41

any of these other places uh douglas probably well i i started to say douglas

31:46

was a more prolific writer than lincoln i don't know lincoln did a lot of writing too but the men were

31:53

if if lincoln ever thought of someone equal to himself it would have to be

31:59

douglas even though douglas was born into slavery but but lincoln's southern

32:05

roots made a difference um and i don't think that lincoln

32:10

actually had enough interaction with black people

32:15

initially to understand that people were different uh you know that all they were

32:20

all types of black people just as they were all types of white people um

32:26

he had a friendship with uh william fleurville you know uh the man who cut

32:31

his hair uh he uh had you know uh relationships with people in the white

32:37

house apparently was fairly close to to uh us william slade you know his his ballet

32:44

and that kind of thing he could be very compassionate to individual black people

32:51

but in terms of looking at black people as a whole he saw them as inferior

32:56

because of what had happened with slavery

33:04

historians have argued that lincoln's involvement with colonization was just a

33:11

smoke screen it was an attempt to uh ensure white americans uh that if

33:17

black people were ever emancipated they would not have to live with them they would not have to deal with them

33:22

in their communities because they would all be sent outside of the country

33:27

and so you do have lincoln at the same time that he's talking about

33:32

colonization also writing the emancipation proclamation

33:38

and so when he's meeting with those five black men at the white house in august

33:44

of 1862 he's telling white americans uh

33:50

something is coming but you don't have to worry about it because my position is that these black

33:56

people should be sent out of the country now he always said that he was

34:03

he was okay with voluntary deportation he didn't believe in forcing people out

34:09

of the country but the argument that he made to those five black men

34:14

was was not well received by the african-american community because what he was doing was he was blaming black

34:21

people for the war and suggesting that the two races could not coexist now

34:27

perhaps he had there was some truth in that because of course we know that after the war ends there's a great deal

34:34

of tension between the races there's a great deal of violence on the part of southern

34:39

whites against the newly emancipated so lincoln understood his people and understood the challenges they would

34:46

have in accepting black people as free and certainly as accepting them as equal

34:52

and having full citizenship in the united states so this is one of the

34:58

complexities of the man while he's writing a document that's going to

35:04

promise freedom to african americans he's also talking about sending them out of the country and the real irony is

35:12

that he must have known that once they were freed not many black people were

35:17

going to leave the country this was the home of their birth this is where their ancestors were buried this is the

35:23

country they had helped to build and there was no way most of them were going to leave and he must have known that

35:31

i wouldn't say that he was not committed to colonization i think that if he could

35:37

have convinced the majority of african-americans to leave the country

35:43

on their own volition on their own accord he would have gone along with that he he certainly was involved in the

35:50

attempt to establish a settlement of freed people

35:56

in central america where he expected them to mine coal he thought that would be an ideal occupation for black men

36:04

he certainly supported the idea of sending more people to liberia there was

36:10

already of course a settlement there there was a country there that had been uh developed

36:16

by the american colonization society and so he was willing to send more

36:22

african-americans to liberia and of course he was very much involved in the haitian venture as well where black

36:29

people about 500 of them were actually sent to uh ilavash or cow island as it was

36:37

called off the coast of haiti but he did have to send a ship to pick up the survivors because quite a few of

36:44

them died in the first few months there because provisions were not made for them they they needed medical

36:51

care they needed food clothing lodging and that was not set up

36:56

properly by the people that he had entrusted to do that and in fact he was very much

37:03

behind the recognition of liberia and haiti

37:09

during this period as as independent countries and

37:15

the argument has been made quite successfully that he did that because he wanted to be able to

37:21

negotiate more easily with those areas and hoped that they would be able to be

37:26

willing to take uh formally enslaved people in because of that relationship

37:33

with the united states

37:40

the abolitionist movement by mid-century by the 1850s is a very important movement it had been

37:48

though since the 1830s there is that transition uh between um at 18 30 it's

37:54

it's um it's it's a watershed period and so uh so it goes from the idea ideas about

38:01

slavery go from uh at least a southern perspective that it's a necessary uh necessary evil to it's a positive good

38:09

but part of that is being brought on by the fact that you've got these abolitionists you've got men and women

38:15

women play a very important role in abolitionism black people and white people

38:21

who are believing that the country would be better off without slavery and they

38:28

are agitating for it to end so you have anti-slavery societies that are being formed you have american anti-slaver

38:35

societies getting together with english anti-slavery societies to try to end

38:41

slavery in america after all because the united states declared its independence

38:48

from great britain slavery lasted longer in the united states because slavery in

38:54

the in the british colonies had ended by the 1830s but of course um the the

39:00

western uh world colonies uh but it's continues in the united states

39:07

but there are people who are fighting desperately to end it you have uh the 19

39:13

the 1850s are a critical period it's a it's a a critical a crucial decade as it's called

39:21

because you have so much happening you have the compromise of 1850 uh you you

39:27

have um the slave trade in washington dc ending uh in 1850 by 1852 uh harriet beecher

39:37

stowe's uncle tom's cabin it makes a difference because it it's in a

39:42

fictional way it shows northerners what slavery was like

39:49

uh there are other people who are writing about it long before harriet beecher stowe frederick douglass has published

39:55

his book before then but people aren't paying as much attention to a formerly enslaved man as they are to someone like

40:03

harriet beecher stone interestingly enough uh you've got kansas nebraska you

40:08

you've got uh the formation of the republican party and the near destruction of the democratic party and

40:15

definitely the destruction of the weak party uh you've got dred scott you've got john brown's raid at the end in 1859

40:22

so all of these things are converging and and abolitionists are in large

40:28

measure pushing these pushing forward that doesn't mean that all abolitionists

40:35

cared about black people were abolitionists who simply did not want to live in a country where slavery

40:42

existed so when the war started there were abolitionists who said okay

40:47

we've done our job let the south go we don't have to worry about slavery

40:53

anymore so what if there are almost four million people enslaved in the south that's their problem that's the

40:59

confederacy's problem it's not our problem anymore but black abolitionists

41:05

and abolitionists who were always concerned about the welfare of black people are pushing and saying no

41:12

we have to get rid of this institution now we cannot just let the south go and keep these people enslaved

41:24

the premier black abolitionist during this period was frederick douglass i don't think there's anyone who stands

41:30

above him there were people like william

41:36

pennington there were john cella martin

41:42

many many other people charlotte fortin who later is very uh

41:47

instrumental in in the south helping people make a transition from slavery to

41:52

freedom uh any number of black abolitionists but douglas is the one who

41:58

stands out the most douglas used his pen and the bully pulpit to fight against

42:05

slavery he was perfect as an abolitionist because he knew firsthand what slavery was like he had freed

42:13

himself and had come to the north and had started uh with william lloyd

42:19

garrison on the anti-slavery lecture circuit and just became a darling of the

42:25

abolitionist went to europe uh i i remember going to ireland uh years ago

42:32

northern ireland and turning a corner and there was this gigantic mural of of

42:38

uh frederick douglass because he had been there he had been in ireland uh

42:44

in the in the uh 1840s i think it was so just an incredible force to be

42:50

reckoned with someone who was brilliant uh had taught himself

42:56

uh just an extraordinary human being and i hated what i hear people say he was an

43:01

extraordinary african-american he was an extraordinary human being period of any

43:07

race uh and actually better i love lincoln's

43:13

language but i think i like douglass's even more i'd love to quote him

43:24

clearly these are two men uh lincoln and douglas uh who started

43:30

um on a different path to life they're both born poor of course but doug was born

43:36

enslaved lincoln just born poor on the frontier but both men had a kind of

43:42

ambition and we don't normally think of lincoln as being ambitious but he was he was

43:49

very ambitious we don't think of douglas as being ambitious for himself but he

43:54

was uh and so these two men who um douglas was a thorn in lincoln's side

44:01

most of the war i mean just really trashed him but the two men learned to respect and

44:08

like each other and that's the interesting thing i think it's a lesson for us that enemies you know people can

44:15

start off as enemies but they can learn to respect each other and hold different opinions about how you get from point a

44:22

to point b but still have some level of respect for each other

44:31

dred scott first of all was an enslaved man who was taken uh into free territory

44:38

to live and then into a free state as well and so abolitionist who had

44:43

befriended him decided to use him as a test case and so they brought the case

44:48

indicating that because he had lived in free territory he was entitled to his

44:53

freedom well i think there were four trials at the state level he won a couple lost a couple uh it finally went

45:01

the case finally went to the supreme court the u.s supreme court and the court was dominated by chief

45:08

justice roger b tani and tani was a southern slave holder a

45:13

racist before we had the word racism in our vocabulary but he certainly was

45:19

um and tawny who could have simply said that you know

45:25

dred scott had no standing in the court went further than that he said scott had no standing in the court so he couldn't

45:32

bring a suit because he wasn't a citizen of the united states and no black man or woman was a citizen of the united states

45:40

he didn't stop there he said black people had no rights that white

45:47

people were bound to respect and finally and the thing that really

45:52

annoyed lincoln and anti-slavery people especially anti-expansionists

45:58

was that because enslaved people were property slave owners could take that property

46:05

anywhere they darn well pleased and so if they wanted to go into the north they could if they wanted to go to

46:12

california they could if they wanted to go into that territory that had been reserved for free white men and women

46:20

they could do that and so lincoln gets upset about that because first and foremost he understands that this thing

46:27

is going to expand and it's not going to die a natural death but the other thing

46:32

is that if you allow slavery into the western territories what does that do to

46:40

poor white men and women poor farmers who now going to have to compete with slave labor

46:46

and that is something that lincoln cannot abide his anti-expansionism is very much about the

46:54

protection of poor white men and women from the institution of slavery

47:06

escape to the north did not guarantee freedom for african americans uh

47:12

uh slave catchers were constantly being sent to the north to

47:18

bring people back into slavery and it's especially bad after 1850

47:24

with the uh the compromise because you have the fugitive slave act that's passed now it's not the first fugitive

47:30

slave act that we had but it certainly had teeth it did a lot more than the

47:35

others did and to be as un-american as you could be what it did was

47:41

it it established a commission and the commission received more money

47:47

for hearing the case and returning the alleged enslaved person back to his

47:54

owner then they received for letting the person go how un-american can you get but that's

48:01

what happened and oh by the way the the alleged runaway could not testify in his

48:07

own defense or against any white person so it was totally unfair to african

48:14

americans you have instances where states are passing personal liberty laws

48:20

northern states trying to get around it you have instances of people uh slave

48:26

catchers are trying to bring people back to the south so they're they're going into a city like boston and they're

48:34

pulling people out and you have mobs that gather to try to stop it but

48:40

ultimately what happens is in most instances these people are returned to slavery if they were ever enslaved to

48:47

begin with because there are people who were not enslaved who are kidnapped

48:53

and sent to the south as well taken to the south so it's a hideous situation after 1850

48:59

what happens is a lot of people who had been living in the north for years decide it's no longer safe so they make

49:06

their way to canada and among those people were 29 members of my family who were free who were not enslaved but were

49:13

free and still did not feel safe in virginia after having been there for all

49:19

those years so they packed up and they went to southern ontario

49:25

and so lots of people were trying to get out of the country because they knew that their lives you know would not be

49:33

safe if they stayed within the united states and all of this is happening within that

49:39

within that um that decade that crucial decade

49:48

lincoln was one of those anti-slavery men he was not an abolitionist before

49:54

the war he was an anti-slavery man who believed that slavery was morally wrong but that

50:02

nothing could be done about it where it already existed in the states because of the constitution constitution protected

50:08

property and enslaved people were property human property but they were still property and so lincoln felt that

50:15

there was nothing that could be done about it except that it could be contained the constitution did he

50:21

believe permit congress to intervene in terms of the territories and so they

50:29

could keep slavery out of the territories they couldn't take slavery out of the states but they could contain

50:35

it and so that's what lincoln was attempting to do and along comes kansas nebraska in 1854.

50:43

it's occurring because stephen a douglas one of the most prominent democrats of

50:48

that era wanted a transcontinental railroad with the

50:54

terminus in chicago so he wanted to to have it run from chicago

51:00

northwards as opposed to a southern route and in order to do that they had

51:05

to actually organize the territory the western territories kansas and the

51:10

nebraska area but in 1850 because of land that had been

51:17

seated after the mexican war they had uh there was a compromise

51:22

called it was called the compromise of 1850 but it was a series of measures it wasn't just one

51:28

but uh they they talked extensively about what to do with that territory and

51:34

so they never came to a real conclusion except to say that when those areas are were organized

51:42

then the local people should be able to decide through a concept of popular sovereignty

51:49

exactly what they wanted to do did they want to be a place where slavery existed

51:54

or did they want to be an area where there was freedom what happens however though that

52:00

territory that douglas is talking about organizing had already been settled

52:06

by the missouri compromise and what the missouri compromise said was

52:12

any territory north of 36 degrees 30 minutes with the exception of missouri

52:18

would come into the union as free states and those below 36 degrees 30 minutes

52:24

would come in as states where there would be slavery with the exception of missouri which would be allowed to come

52:31

in as a slave state and so it had already been settled so what happens

52:36

though stephen a douglas pushes for this idea of popular sovereignty and so you

52:42

have a mini civil war in kansas that's when john brown goes in and does his

52:48

thing and we're still trying to judge him on exactly whether or not he was right or wrong to uh to

52:54

actually kill you know five people in the middle of the night but that's

53:00

another story um so lincoln is enraged

53:05

at the idea that the missouri compromise is being overturned you know law that had been

53:11

settled you know is now overturned and so you've got this possibility of the

53:17

expansion of slavery so he understands that slavery is not going to die a natural death it's just going to expand

53:23

and expand so that brings him back into politics i think the concern was

53:29

that if you allowed slavery to expand into the territories where would the

53:34

south stop you know would they go for cuba and they did have designs on cuba uh where else would they expand the

53:42

institution um there were some people though who believed that it was a moot point

53:49

because slavery would never take hold in that area that that wasn't the kind

53:55

of environment where slavery would thrive but i think that what we forget is that enslaved people did so much more

54:02

than agriculture you know they could they were involved in mining you know they were involved in railroad building

54:08

they were involved in tobacco factories for goodness sake and so the people who argued it's a new point i think were

54:14

absolutely wrong if it had been allowed to expand without a war who knows what would have happened

54:26

lincoln had always believed that the founding fathers had expected slavery to be contained and had expected it to die

54:34

naturally he he believed that the only reason why slavery was allowed in the first place

54:40

was because they never would have been in the united states without it because the southern states would have never

54:46

been a part of the union if if the rest of the nation had not approved of them continuing uh with slavery but he felt

54:54

that the founding fathers believed that at some point slavery would end and so they don't even mention the word slavery

55:01

in the constitution they talk about others held to labor that's enslaved

55:06

people but they never mentioned that and so he believed that the founding fathers thought that slavery was a

55:13

cancer on the nation but you couldn't just get rid of it because you might destroy the national body if you did

55:20

that and so the fact that kansas nebraska occurs

55:26

he just doesn't see any way out anymore i mean it has taken away his argument

55:32

that oh eventually it'll die out because lincoln and others were more than happy to wait

55:38

until it died a natural death i think that's what we forget sometimes lincoln was not an abolitionist initially he was

55:45

more than happy he would have been willing to wait into the 20th century you know for slavery to have died or

55:52

some other distant period but the kansas nebraska act was

55:57

extremely important it destroyed a party it destroyed the weak party destroyed

56:03

lincoln's party but it also gave birth to the republican party

56:08

and the republican party was very successful in a very short period of time

56:14

let me remind however that the republican party have been was not the republican party of today and the

56:20

democratic party then was not the democratic party of today they have switched

56:31

by the time of the election lincoln was better known because of the

56:39

lincoln douglas debates of 1858 not because lincoln was so prominent

56:44

during that period but stephen a douglas was so the fact that lincoln was challenging him elevated lincoln's

56:51

stature as well but what really gave lincoln that push was the cooper

56:57

union address in february of 1860. it made him stand out among other

57:04

candidates because he was a moderate he was not a radical he talked about how

57:09

he felt the constitution was meant to um you know have slavery end

57:15

eventually so he wasn't uh a flaming abolitionist because abolitionists were hated during

57:22

that period by many americans and so he stood out because of that and

57:28

so by the time he is elected southerners are already primed for a fight they are

57:34

very afraid even though lincoln is a moderate even though he's saying he has no

57:40

desire to interfere with slavery he says it over and over again even before 1860.

57:47

so they know that but they are so concerned that he's going to attack

57:53

slavery that south carolina you know that the problem child of the south for

57:59

a long period of time because they were talking about seceding in the 1830s as well but south carolina decides that

58:06

this is it they're going to secede from the union and after south carolina

58:11

leaves mississippi comes along and does the same and so by the time that lincoln

58:16

is inaugurated in march of 1861 you have seven states that have already left the

58:22

union and then four more join after uh the fort sumter incident but of

58:29

course there are four states that remain in the union uh who that are slave holding

58:35

but they weren't terribly uh supportive of the union they were

58:41

still very much ant uh anti-anti-they were pro-confederates

58:47

uh maryland delaware kentucky missouri i mean they were they

58:55

may have been union states but they were about as as close to being in the confederacy as you

59:00

can get

59:07

lincoln was so concerned that the confederacy would expand that the four remaining

59:15

slave holding states would join the confederacy so he spent a great deal of time in the first couple

59:22

of years of the war trying to get the border states to end slavery on their own telling them that you know congress

59:29

would help them uh pay for you know actually pay the owners uh of these

59:34

enslaved people and that congress would appropriate money for colonization because you don't want to keep these

59:41

black people in the in the states once they're freed you know they heaven forbid that they get out of control

59:47

and so he was saying well we can get congress to help pay for them to be moved someplace else outside of the

59:54

country and congress does do that congress does appropriate money for for that um reason so lincoln is very much

1:00:03

concerned about kentucky as well i mean he really did feel that if kentucky left

1:00:08

the union everybody else was going to leave as well at least in terms of the slave holding states so he does

1:00:14

everything he can to keep them in position lincoln believed that if the four states

1:00:22

the four union states that were slave holding states joined the confederacy it would strengthen the confederate cause

1:00:30

and that the union would be split forever so he tried desperately to keep the man and was much more conciliatory

1:00:37

for a long period of time than he needed to be

1:00:46

the country is so divided by the time that lincoln is on his way to washington

1:00:53

uh that when he gets to baltimore uh his life is threatened and he has to

1:00:58

disguise himself and find his way to washington under disguise because there's there's fear

1:01:05

that he's going to be assassinated but you also have in washington

1:01:12

people congressmen actually trying to do something to stop what they could see

1:01:17

was a war brewing and so you have conferences that attempt to to bring the

1:01:23

two sides together uh you have all sorts of things are occurring none of them that work you

1:01:29

have the korean amendment that actually had it been passed would have been the 13th amendment

1:01:35

and what it would have done would have been to approve slavery forever you couldn't uh it stated that

1:01:43

the country could never pass a constitutional amendment against slavery so it's ironic that the 13th amendment

1:01:49

that actually ended slavery started out as the chlorine the corwin amendment

1:01:55

saying we're going to guarantee that slavery can continue where it already exists

1:02:00

when lincoln comes to the white house what he's interested in is bringing the union back together he's

1:02:07

not thinking about ending slavery nothing like that he's talking about bringing the union

1:02:14

together he doesn't speak openly in that transition in that period from

1:02:19

when he's elected to when he's inaugurated but he's writing letters to people and he's telling them what he

1:02:26

will and will not do and he's saying you know i'll tolerate just about anything

1:02:32

except i'm not going to tolerate the expansion of slavery and his his reason for that and i find

1:02:38

it interesting is this area is reserved for white men

1:02:44

he doesn't talk about black people deserving freedom he talks about that

1:02:49

area in the west is reserved for the use of white men and so he when he when he

1:02:55

uh issues his first inaugural address he's emphasizing

1:03:01

union in fact what he's saying is i will not touch your domestic institutions and

1:03:07

that's you know that's code word for i'm going to keep my hands off of slavery so don't worry about that and he

1:03:14

even agrees to continue enforcing the fugitive slave act

1:03:20

now he didn't need to do that not really you have these people who have left the nation

1:03:26

and he's protecting their institution it is absolutely amazing so he is

1:03:32

bending over backwards to be conciliatory to these folk who have

1:03:38

turned their backs on the union i think lincoln was desperate

1:03:45

to ensure that the nation be reunited i don't think he forgot that slavery was a

1:03:52

bad thing but i think he was more concerned about what was right in front of him

1:03:58

and what was in front of him was preserving the union and that's the position he kept for

1:04:04

quite a while congress was quite a bit ahead of him early on in the war congress was ready

1:04:11

to strike against slavery in whatever way they could lincoln was a little bit slower with it and the argument has

1:04:17

always been that because uh he was cautious

1:04:23

he got the country to the right place but it could have gone so wrong uh it's

1:04:29

it's when you think about how a superior the confederate forces were they may

1:04:36

have been uh a smaller force than the union they didn't have the numbers but

1:04:41

they had superior generals for a long time and they won victory after victory

1:04:46

after victory this could have gone very badly and if it had the north would have

1:04:52

still existed of course but the south would have been off to itself and slavery would have continued

1:05:00

way into the 20th century i mean the argument was well you know 20th century

1:05:05

economy did not you know just could not have fit slavery and yes it could have and also i think people forget

1:05:12

that slavery was more than an economic institution it was a social institution

1:05:17

as well it was one of social control and that kind of of control would have

1:05:24

lasted who knows to this day there would have been no reason to change it

1:05:29

at least for southerners who had the power i remember reading

1:05:35

a piece from w.b du bois in the crisis magazine uh i think it was published in

1:05:41

1922 and he talks about lincoln's contradictions you know he's he's

1:05:47

somebody you know who who loves freedom but is willing to accept slavery for

1:05:53

however long it takes uh and that he is like that he is someone

1:06:00

who understands how damaging slavery is and that's the

1:06:05

thing i mean there there are people in the north at least who don't understand that they really do buy the idea that

1:06:12

slavery is is it's mild you know that it's beneficial to black people lincoln

1:06:18

understands it's not but still he's willing to allow the institution to

1:06:23

continue for as long as it needs to die a natural death

1:06:29

so the contradictions are there uh contradictions are there for a lot of people but the difference with lincoln

1:06:35

is he does grow you know i i used to sort of scoff at that when someone said well you know you have to understand the

1:06:42

man grows and when yeah right you know how many people had to die before he grew but he did he he did change his

1:06:48

attitudes about slavery now it took a war to do that mind you but he could have simply sat there and

1:06:56

done nothing about what was happening with slavery in the south he could have simply taken the

1:07:01

time to allow the confederate states back into the union without anything changing with slavery and he did not do

1:07:09

that and so i think we need to give him credit at least for that

1:07:19

the interesting thing about the the progression of the war is that northerners thought it was going to be

1:07:24

an easy victory that they were going to win at bull run and that you know everything would be fine after that and

1:07:31

the confederates won at bull run and they won battle after battle after

1:07:37

battle small ones and major ones and so yeah lincoln had to rethink

1:07:44

how slavery was going to factor into this or or emancipation was going to

1:07:49

factor into it congress was a bit ahead of him though because congress understood as did

1:07:55

lincoln but congress especially understood how valuable enslaved labor

1:08:01

was to the south and so what was happening is that the the southern government the

1:08:06

confederate government was impressing enslaved men and free black men for that

1:08:12

matter into their armies not as soldiers but as

1:08:18

laborers throwing up breastworks serving as orderlies doing things that

1:08:23

made it possible for white soldiers to be relieved to fight and so they were playing a tremendous

1:08:30

role black people who were left on the plantations were still growing cotton

1:08:36

they were still raising food for the army the black population in the south was

1:08:42

incredibly important lincoln recognized that and congress definitely did so as

1:08:48

early as september of 1861 congress is passing that first confiscation act that

1:08:54

says if if your property is is going to be used against the union we're going to

1:09:00

confiscate it including your human property and lincoln doesn't like that

1:09:05

remember lincoln is a man who believes that property is sacred and you can't do that because it's against the

1:09:11

constitution well congress does it anyway and so from that moment people are

1:09:17

saying yes why are we not touching slavery uh it's interesting frederick

1:09:22

douglass writes this piece where he says we can we can confiscate the flower we

1:09:28

can confiscate the horses but we can't confiscate the enslaved people what is

1:09:33

up with this and so people start realizing if we're going to win this war we have got to

1:09:39

take that advantage from the south and make it our own and so that's what happens over the next

1:09:46

several months but not before lincoln tries to get the states to do something

1:09:52

about slavery

1:09:58

i think his attitude about the abilities of black people

1:10:05

change partially because of douglas but more so

1:10:10

because of the black soldiers who serving after the emancipation proclamation that

1:10:15

proclamation doesn't just declare people free it says they are also authorized to

1:10:21

enter the union army and navy and black men equip themselves so well

1:10:29

in the war lincoln recognizes that he owes them a debt that the nation

1:10:34

owes them a debt in fact as early as the summer of 1863 he he writes a

1:10:40

letter to republican friends in illinois and you know he's trying to explain

1:10:46

himself he doesn't have time to go to illinois to speak to them the way they want him to but he sends this letter and

1:10:51

he asks that they that the letter be read uh at this conference and he says in the letter i know some of

1:10:59

you are questioning why i issued the proclamation i issued it because it helped to save

1:11:07

the union and then he says you say you won't fight for black men

1:11:14

i say they're willing to fight for you and he says in the end uh the war is

1:11:20

nearing an end when this war is over there will be some black men who can hold their heads high

1:11:27

and remember that they help to preserve the union and there will be some white

1:11:32

men who will have to hang their heads because they did just the opposite it's

1:11:38

it's a powerful letter that he writes that shows what he feels the nation owes

1:11:45

to black men

1:11:52

before the war even began african americans recognized that this was their

1:11:57

opportunity for freedom um whether you were free in the north because there was no real freedom in the

1:12:04

north either i mean black people were not treated as equal and part of the reason why they're involved in getting

1:12:11

into the army is because they know if slavery ends it elevates their own status

1:12:16

but so if you're in the north you know you you have these attitudes about freedom even though no one's talking

1:12:22

about it uh at least congress in lincoln or not uh if you're in the south and

1:12:28

you're enslaved you think that lincoln is the great emancipator that that whole

1:12:34

thing started with enslaved people who believed before lincoln did anything

1:12:40

that he was going to end slavery because that's what they heard their owners say

1:12:46

you know i mean we sometimes think of enslaved people because they were uneducated you know like they didn't pay

1:12:51

any attention to what was happening politically oh yes they did and they knew what was happening sometimes before

1:12:57

their owners did and they knew what was happening in the world so they had heard about haiti they had heard about people

1:13:05

in other areas striking for freedom and so when the war does come

1:13:12

they start leaving at every opportunity what happens with fortress monroe in may

1:13:20

of 1861 is just the tip of the iceberg it's the beginning of that flight and so

1:13:25

you have a situation where the union army sails in to

1:13:30

the fortress monroe area hampton roads and they take over the fort and well well uh commander butler butler

1:13:38

come general butler comes in and takes uh takes uh control so um you've got three black men showing

1:13:45

up at the fort the next day uh trying to they're seeking asylum and butler

1:13:53

questions them says you know why do you think you can come here and have your freedom well my owner has left the area

1:13:59

my owner is working with he's a military man in the confederacy and

1:14:04

they're trying to take us to north carolina to build fortifications and butler has a choice to make he can

1:14:11

either send them on their way just let them go and fend for themselves in the

1:14:17

city of hampton or he can classify them as contraband of

1:14:22

war and employ them around the fort and he decides that that's what he's

1:14:29

going to do because he confiscates the property because they're going to be

1:14:34

used he thinks to build fortifications in north carolina well the problem is

1:14:40

after those three men come in hordes of people come to fortress monroe after that and these are infirm men who

1:14:49

cannot serve you really can't do anything around the fort women who can't children who can't butler has to

1:14:55

determine do i send them out of the fort or do i accept them and he decides to accept

1:15:02

them all in and they're coming from miles away dozens of miles away they're coming from

1:15:09

north carolina to the fort so that happens so the majority of african

1:15:14

americans stay on the plantations and farms they stay in the confederacy but at least

1:15:21

500 000 i've heard actually leave the plantations and the farms and make their

1:15:27

way to the union lines butler does try to get some kind of

1:15:34

support from lincoln and the administration to to approve what he's

1:15:39

doing in terms of declaring people contraband of war before for a while there he doesn't really get

1:15:45

any word and so he starts doing it you know he just goes on and does it on his own and no one really challenges him in

1:15:53

that but the problem with the lincoln administration early on not having a

1:16:00

policy on that is that every union commander now can decide what he wants to do

1:16:07

and so what some of them do is they they take these people into the the uh union

1:16:13

lines they find you know they establish camps for them other people return them

1:16:18

to their owners even though the owners are in rebellion it's the craziest thing

1:16:24

you could imagine but we have to remember that not all of the union generals are abolitionists many of them

1:16:30

are not and so and they don't care about black freedom they care about union they care

1:16:36

about preserving the union and eventually the lincoln administration does decide that yes we're going to keep

1:16:44

these people but of course congress is already passing the first confiscation

1:16:49

act in 61 and the second confiscation act in july of 62. but lincoln doesn't

1:16:54

actually approve of either of those confiscation acts he just thinks it's it's a little

1:17:01

and it's too much like separating people from there from their legal property

1:17:07

he's so focused on preserving the union and he still doesn't want to do anything

1:17:12

to upset the border states i mean he knows that the confederacy those states are lost

1:17:18

that they're gone those 11 are gone out of the union but he doesn't want to do anything to

1:17:24

upset the four that are still in the union

1:17:33

many northerners white northerners had no appreciation

1:17:39

for what slavery was all about what african americans had endured

1:17:45

for generations what the contraband were enduring in these contraband camps

1:17:53

what had happened to them on their way to freedom as they were trying to escape plantations and farms

1:18:01

and cities and so it was not unusual for northern publications to

1:18:07

publish these really ridiculous racist

1:18:13

caricatures of uh newly emancipated or black people

1:18:18

or contraband they thought of them as stupid as people who were barbaric

1:18:26

as folk who didn't know how to behave and so even though these people in many

1:18:32

ways were helping the union cause by being spies by turning over information

1:18:38

to the union army about troop movements uh in the confederacy

1:18:44

uh northerners just did not appreciate the condition these folk were in and so

1:18:49

as entertainment as sport they simply published these

1:18:56

really silly horrific images of black people

1:19:06

i think that lincoln comes to the conclusion that he's never going to be able to

1:19:12

convince the border states to end slavery and so he's going to have to do it himself

1:19:18

he you know he had commanders in the field who tried to do it for him he had fremont you know in missouri who tried

1:19:26

to emancipate and he said no he had a hunter in the department of the south

1:19:31

trying to do the same thing and he said no to him but he does say that if emancipation is to occur i will

1:19:38

be the one to do it and so perhaps certainly by that time he was thinking along those lines but i think it's

1:19:45

because he knows he's never going to be able to convince those border states to start

1:19:50

the process of ending slavery that he has to do something himself

1:19:56

he has to be certain that um that the european nations are not going

1:20:01

to enter the war on the side of the confederacy issuing a proclamation

1:20:07

prevents them from doing that because their people have already decided that

1:20:13

they want to live in a free society and they want to support free societies the

1:20:18

leaders of those nations the leaders of france and great britain

1:20:23

may not be there but their people their people are there lincoln knows that they are not going to enter the war

1:20:30

on the side of the confederacy as long as there is a proclamation emancipating enslaved people that the european powers

1:20:37

would have liked to have entered the war on the side of the confederacy because of economic ties

1:20:43

but they're kept out of the war for that reason he also is issuing the proclamation because he recognizes that

1:20:50

enslaved people provide an advantage to the confederacy so he wants to take away

1:20:56

that advantage he wants to throw the south into chaos and so he's able to do that

1:21:04

and finally he wants black men in the military because it's very difficult to

1:21:11

keep white men in the military people thought it was going to be a short war so nobody wants to serve two three years

1:21:18

or more and so some people are deserting and some are just getting fed up and people are getting chopped up i mean

1:21:25

they are they are really being damaged by this war on both sides physically

1:21:31

and so lincoln needs troops as well and he knows that if he's issuing the

1:21:38

proclamation then he's got that that body of men to

1:21:44

serve because once they are freed you know they they are coming into the union

1:21:49

lines and whether they're coming in because the union army is liberating them or if they're finding their own way

1:21:57

to uh to the union line but black men play a very important role in their own

1:22:04

liberation and the liberation of other black people and so to think of lincoln

1:22:11

as having done it all himself just by signing a piece of paper

1:22:17

no that is not the case uh more than 180 000 black men served about 40 000 of

1:22:23

them died so no that's not a small number of people they were there they were there

1:22:30

in major battles and they equipped themselves very well lincoln for a long time didn't want black men to serve

1:22:36

because he thought they weren't brave enough to stand up to their uh owners on the battlefield

1:22:43

well he was wrong they had no problem doing that at all and so he recognized

1:22:48

that there was a debt that was owed to them at the end of the war the popular position

1:22:56

for a long time has been that the emancipation proclamation did nothing that it didn't free a single enslaved

1:23:03

person that's not true uh you know the argument is that lincoln freed enslaved

1:23:09

people where he had no authority and left them enslaved where he did have authority and is true the emancipation

1:23:17

proclamation only uh focused on those states or parts

1:23:23

of states that were still in rebellion areas that were under union control

1:23:28

generally those folk remained enslaved so you've got louisiana you've got uh

1:23:34

new orleans and those parishes around new orleans those people remain enslaved

1:23:39

because there's a strong union presence there you've got virginia southern virginia and portsmouth the norfolk and

1:23:46

portsmouth area those people remain enslaved because there's a strong union presence there but it doesn't mean that

1:23:54

the proclamation was not important the proclamation instantly freed certain

1:23:59

groups of people because the union army was nearby uh in other instances uh you know you

1:24:07

people had to wait a bit but they did eventually uh get their freedom i'm

1:24:12

reminded of uh an instance where an editor

1:24:18

for a new york-based newspaper the anglo-african uh argued that the emancipation

1:24:24

proclamation was important he said it was like a pillar of flame beckoning

1:24:31

slaves to the dreamed of promise of freedom and so even if they were not in the

1:24:38

vicinity of a union force at the time that the proclamation was issued they

1:24:44

knew the proclamation existed and they did everything they could some

1:24:49

of them to get to the union lines because they wanted their freedom the interesting thing is though

1:24:55

some people would run to the union lines stay a few weeks get fed up with how

1:25:01

they were treated by the union army because northern white men didn't treat them much better than southern white men

1:25:06

did they would come back home to the plantations after they had left

1:25:12

mess around there a little bit then go back to the union lines you know it is fascinating to see how people responded

1:25:20

to the fact that they were free

1:25:27

those people who say that the emancipation proclamation was insignificant really haven't considered

1:25:34

what's in it what it actually says no it doesn't have the language that lincoln

1:25:39

would normally have it's not something that we are going to quote most of the time but it is a very

1:25:46

powerful document now it is about the promise of freedom he cannot free people

1:25:52

without those people moving away from the plantations themselves or the union army coming to

1:25:59

liberate them because their owners are not going to go down to the quarters and say well the president says that you're

1:26:06

free and you can go that is not the way it happens but that doesn't mean that it's not important african americans

1:26:13

were leaving the plantations and farms long before lincoln issued the proclamation but the proclamation is

1:26:20

important because it tells those people that the president of the united states

1:26:26

the most powerful man in the country is telling you you are free to go you don't

1:26:32

have to wait you don't have to wonder i am giving you that promise of freedom

1:26:37

i always remember that the anglo-african in new york one of the

1:26:43

newspapers in new york called the proclamation a pillar of flame beckoning

1:26:49

the slaves to the dreamed of promise of freedom that is powerful that's the way

1:26:55

they saw it as well and so they couldn't celebrate in the way they would have liked to because they were still on the

1:27:02

plantations but the next day after hearing about the proclamation people were packing up and leaving and there

1:27:09

were some areas that they could do that because uh there weren't many men there because

1:27:14

they were all in the confederate army and so people took that opportunity to

1:27:20

leave the proclamation opened the door to black freedom and that we can't

1:27:27

overstate how important that was so i think historians who argue that it was

1:27:33

insignificant and that the 13th amendment ended slavery and it did but the proclamation opened the door and

1:27:40

we need to give lincoln credit for that it doesn't matter why he did it we know it was out of military necessity we know

1:27:46

he was primarily concerned with preserving the union but it mattered to black people and

1:27:53

that's what we need to remember certainly lincoln was swayed by military

1:28:00

necessity in issuing the proclamation but i think it's

1:28:07

not fair to suggest that he had no humanitarian concerns for african

1:28:13

americans uh just at the very end of it he talks about justice you know and he talks

1:28:20

about he invokes god's name he understands how important this is to the

1:28:27

people that he's promising freedom to he he talked before this

1:28:33

about you know what would i do you know if i could free them you know would i send them all back to africa

1:28:39

that wouldn't be right do i have them stay here they're going to suffer he he was concerned about what would happen

1:28:47

once freedom people got their freedom certainly

1:28:52

he was more concerned about the union than he was about

1:28:58

the future of african americans but that doesn't mean that he didn't consider

1:29:03

how they would be impacted by this

1:29:11

well we have to remember who frederick douglass was he was a person who was

1:29:17

very much in love with himself i think he recognized that he was special

1:29:22

and he was not going to let anyone put him in a box and tell him what it was he could and could not do

1:29:29

so on the the day of the inauguration at the inaugural ball douglas decides

1:29:35

that he's going to attend even though he hasn't been invited to attend black people generally are not attending those

1:29:42

kinds of things but he's frederick douglass and he's going to go so he goes

1:29:47

and he's not allowing in and he sees someone that he knows

1:29:52

and he yells to them you know tell the president that fred douglas is outside

1:29:57

and is not being allowed to come in and so this person goes to lincoln and

1:30:03

lincoln comes out and says you know you know my friend douglas you know please come

1:30:09

in and so he uh asked douglas what did he think of the inaugural address and

1:30:15

douglas says well mr president i i thought it was a sacred effort and so you get the sense the two men are

1:30:23

close friends uh and people use that a lot you know they these were you know these were

1:30:29

bosom buddies they were not i mean it's not like

1:30:35

lincoln was inviting douglas over for a fried chicken dinner or something on sunday okay

1:30:40

but lincoln did invite douglas to uh have tea at the soldiers home that was um

1:30:46

lincoln's um summer retreat just outside of washington still exists

1:30:52

and um but douglas had something else to do and he didn't accept the invitation of course lincoln was assassinated

1:30:59

shortly thereafter but i the three men met the two men met only

1:31:06

three times uh once when douglas just simply walked into the

1:31:12

white house and demanded to see the president uh the second time at lincoln's

1:31:17

invitation because lincoln was concerned that he was not going to win the election and he wanted to make sure that

1:31:23

the black people that he had freed by the emancipation proclamation could get out of the confederacy if he was forced

1:31:30

to ink some kind of deal with the confederacy that kept slavery intact so he wanted to get as many black people

1:31:37

out of itself as possible and so he asked douglas to help him devise a plan to do that and of course the third time

1:31:44

they met was at the inaugural ball so i don't know that three meetings makes

1:31:50

someone bosom buddies but certainly um it clearly showed that the two men had

1:31:57

respect for each other and i think that's that's the most we can expect although when

1:32:03

lincoln is assassinated mrs lincoln does give douglas one of lincoln's favorite canes so

1:32:09

obviously lincoln had spoken highly of douglas if if mrs lincoln was willing to

1:32:16

do that

1:32:22

lincoln had uh interesting uh relationships with

1:32:28

individual uh african-americans uh he had uh billy the barber william

1:32:33

fleurville in springfield who uh who cut his hair and uh lincoln had uh assisted

1:32:40

fleurville in the acquisition of land he had fairly close relationships with other

1:32:47

individual african-americans as well including william johnson

1:32:53

lincoln believed that slavery damaged uh african americans

1:33:00

socially but intellectually as well but he could he saw

1:33:06

individuals like johnson like fleurville and of course like frederick douglass uh

1:33:12

that he felt uh were people that he could relate to and so he remained

1:33:19

close to johnson for some time i don't know that i would call any of his

1:33:24

relationships with individual african americans as a friendship but certainly

1:33:32

a friendly acquaintance i think and johnson was one of the people who fit into that category who was very loyal to

1:33:39

lincoln and lingard was very loyal to him as well well it wasn't unusual for

1:33:45

lincoln to show compassion for individual african americans uh he didn't just pay off uh

1:33:53

william johnson's part of his debts or pay for his funeral he he would see a stranger on the street

1:34:01

who was begging and he would be willing to give the person money

1:34:06

when elizabeth keckley came to mrs lincoln to

1:34:12

collect funds for the friedman's society contraband society that she was

1:34:19

so intimately involved in of course mary doesn't have her own money she's getting

1:34:25

it from her husband we're assuming and so she and the president support that

1:34:32

i think that part of the complexity of the man is

1:34:38

that he can see people as individuals and he can sympathize with their plight

1:34:45

in terms of how he dealt with larger groups of african-americans how he dealt

1:34:51

with the race in general a lot of times it was based on what he saw was in the best interest of the

1:34:58

country and so he could be compassionate he could believe that slavery was morally wrong

1:35:05

he could believe that people had the right to better themselves and that slavery prevented it but at the same

1:35:13

time he could move very cautiously against ending slavery because he said

1:35:19

more than once what he did about slavery he did based on what was what he felt was in

1:35:26

the best interest of the country and i think that he was

1:35:31

always struggling with that how much could he do without harming the

1:35:37

country and of course without treading on the constitutional right of

1:35:43

protection of private property as well that certainly was central to him

1:35:55

well harriet tubman uh of course is well known for her uh having self-emancipated in 1849

1:36:03

she leaves maryland she leaves her husband behind because he's not willing to leave with her

1:36:09

uh and and she's not satisfied with that she returns over and over again to bring out our

1:36:17

family members and friends at great risk to her life she's got a bounty on her head i mean that the south is very

1:36:23

annoyed with what she's doing but she persists in that and she does not allow people to uh turn around

1:36:31

apparently she even threatened them with guns if if they decided that they were going to turn around

1:36:37

many people don't know that she also served as a spy during the war because

1:36:43

this is an old black woman who's stooped nobody is going to assume that she's a

1:36:50

threat to anyone and so she's able to get into places cross lines that the

1:36:56

average person wouldn't be able to so she's gathering information for the union army

1:37:02

she's called general tubman by some people and so the greatest feat probably

1:37:07

is when she joins colonel montgomery and his soldiers

1:37:13

in their raid up the cumberhee river and if i'm remembering correctly there are about 700 people who are brought out of

1:37:20

there as a consequence of that action uh this is a black woman who's doing this

1:37:27

uh it is she she is i i can't let i'm going to she's a badass okay it's simple

1:37:33

as that uh just extraordinary and it's someone

1:37:38

that all of our children should know about not just black children

1:37:44

she has an american spirit that we

1:37:49

didn't see often during that period and we see even less so now and so she's the

1:37:56

kind of true patriot i think that we need to honor and we need to remember

1:38:02

uh she was just an extraordinary person i i i can't say more about her

1:38:14

elizabeth keckley who was um mary lincoln's dressmaker

1:38:21

and a confidante to mary lincoln had been enslaved herself

1:38:27

with her son in southern virginia and she had uh befriended some very

1:38:34

important people had made clothing for them for these ladies in the south

1:38:39

and they actually loaned her the money to purchase her freedom and the freedom

1:38:44

of her son and she paid them back very quickly through her dressmaking

1:38:50

elizabeth keckley once she was free never forgot where she came from

1:38:57

she didn't try to hide in washington and pretend that she'd always been free this is a woman who became a pillar of the

1:39:05

african-american community and did all that she could to help black people who were escaping

1:39:13

slavery and so the contraband relief relief association was the one of those

1:39:19

ways that she attempted to assist and so she raised money for that organization

1:39:24

that organization took that money to purchase fabric and already made clothing for african

1:39:32

americans and distributed them to uh to contraband camps and bought other

1:39:38

supplies for them and so she's a very important part

1:39:43

of the movement during that period to ensure that black people

1:39:49

who had been declared contraband and had found their way or had been

1:39:55

liberated by union troops and brought into the city of washington especially but in

1:40:02

other areas as well that she wanted to make sure that they were able to survive

1:40:08

this war because lots of people died as a consequence of exposure

1:40:14

and starvation and disease they were in these horrific

1:40:19

camps that were overcrowded without proper housing without enough food without

1:40:26

enough clothing and it was women especially like elizabeth keckley who

1:40:31

raised funds to help these people and some of these women went into the camps

1:40:37

and ministered to to uh these folk who needed such help who were in such dire

1:40:43

shape

1:40:50

i i think first and foremost we we sort of venerate lincoln um

1:40:56

to the extent that people still do um because

1:41:02

he did show compassion not always in the way we would have liked him to but he was someone who

1:41:09

tried to be measured who did show sympathy

1:41:15

from time to time always to individuals but understood

1:41:20

what the country was involved in at the time

1:41:25

um so i think that that's primarily

1:41:31

why he's still so beloved in certain circles today but i think we need to also recognize

1:41:38

that as as great a person as he was as a human being

1:41:44

he was also a flawed human being he was not perfect uh

1:41:49

neither should he have been you know it's he was not jesus christ and somebody some people think that he was i

1:41:56

mean they put him on that level but this was a man who was flawed i think he probably did the best he could

1:42:03

given the circumstances i still don't understand though why he did some things i i just i just shake my

1:42:11

head sometimes when i read certain things that he did that i think he could have done differently because i know that because

1:42:18

of some of his decisions more people died than needed to have

1:42:23

died when when he's allowing the union commanders to return

1:42:29

runaways to their owners they're going back to their deaths in some instances or they're being sold

1:42:36

away from their families if he had put something in place earlier and said any enslaved person who makes

1:42:43

their way to the union lines they're free don't return them but he didn't do that initially and so it's those kinds

1:42:50

of things you know that really do bother me i i remember being told once by a

1:42:57

senior faculty member when i was young and still wet behind the ears that i

1:43:02

expected lincoln to be something that he could not be and perhaps i should sort of let it go

1:43:09

and realize this is a person who did the best he could under the circumstances i

1:43:14

don't know that i'm there but i have certainly a different appreciation for what he was having to

1:43:22

deal with uh not just a war but dissension in his own party

1:43:29

uh loss of his friends because of his stance on emancipation so he was going

1:43:35

through a lot the death of of his children uh a wife who was um

1:43:44

frustrated in her own right because she was a woman and could not

1:43:50

uh express herself in the way that men could politically so he was dealing with

1:43:55

a lot i think that if you can appreciate his complex his

1:44:02

complexity he becomes greater only because you know that he's a human

1:44:10

being like the rest of us and despite that i mean he was flawed

1:44:15

but he found a way around some of those flaws he was not perfect not at all but

1:44:21

he was able to accomplish some things that uh someone who was less great or with less

1:44:30

ambition or with less skill would not have been successful at and so

1:44:35

he was the right person at the right time um for the nation

1:44:42

and for african americans too i don't give him credit for for everything that

1:44:48

happened with african americans during this period because we did a lot of it ourselves as well but i do give him part

1:44:55

he was central to the whole thing and so to suggest that what he did was not significant is

1:45:03

not to understand that that period of history i think he was important to the cause uh central to

1:45:11

the cause but he's not the only one so the term great emancipator for

1:45:16

instance um not if you're suggesting by great emancipator that he single-handedly

1:45:24

ended slavery no he did not but in terms of having the courage to do

1:45:31

what was right and what was necessary because what he did was not just right it was necessary to save the union but

1:45:38

there's some people who would have allowed the union to just split forever

1:45:44

rather than do what he was willing to do and so i think that's what makes him great

1:45:49

when i first started studying lincoln i

1:45:55

looked primarily at the lincoln-douglas debates that's how i was introduced to lincoln

1:46:00

and i remember the charleston debate was what we would call very racist during

1:46:07

this day because he used the n-word and he said some things other things that were not flattering to

1:46:14

people of color but then when i really started digging deeper into his speeches and into his

1:46:22

private correspondence with friends and allies in the republican party

1:46:28

i noticed that there was more to him than that so i came to the conclusion that he was a

1:46:34

very complex individual this is someone who was southern born actually born in

1:46:40

kentucky he was a man of the south in many ways and he certainly was a white

1:46:46

man of his time but there were things that were different about him i think he certainly

1:46:52

could see beyond what the average white american could see in terms of the

1:46:57

ability of people to make themselves better and so i came to appreciate that

1:47:04

complexity more and more as i read more uh of what he had actually said

1:47:10

initially i thought that he moved extremely slowly at a snail's pace

1:47:17

um after having studied him longer

1:47:22

for years and years there are things i would have liked that

1:47:28

that he could have changed that he didn't i think he spent too much time trying to get the border states

1:47:35

to emancipate i think he put too much effort into

1:47:40

trying to protect the property of people who had rebelled against the

1:47:45

nation we're not talking about american citizens who are behaving like american citizens we're talking about people who

1:47:52

are in open rebellion who are killing northern soldiers and sailors

1:47:59

and he still had compassion for them i don't i couldn't have done that

1:48:06

uh i don't know that i would want anyone to do that i just think that he was a little bit

1:48:13

too magnanimous to people who were causing the problem so i think that's

1:48:18

that's where i'm stuck why would he do that

1:48:27

we certainly know that lincoln recognizes the damage done by the war to the

1:48:34

soldiers to the contraband to the country in general lincoln is spending

1:48:40

his summers out at the soldiers home it's called it's just outside of

1:48:48

washington i mean it's a part of washington now but it was in an area where it was cooler during the summer

1:48:54

months washington was built on a swamp so it was difficult to be

1:48:59

in the center of the city uh during the summer so he moved the white house out

1:49:04

to well he moved out to um soldier's home and actually um

1:49:10

traveled to the to uh into the city every day

1:49:15

but while in residence at the soldier's home he would have seen

1:49:22

daily burials there was a national cemetery adjacent to the soldiers home and he would have seen uh bodies being

1:49:30

brought in he understood what the war was doing to the soldiers he understood

1:49:36

what it was doing to the country that certainly weighed on his mind and

1:49:42

we know that it did because the war itself all of the the pressures of being

1:49:48

a leader during this horrific war and it's not just a war it's a civil war so

1:49:53

he understood what it was doing to southern families as well certainly we see the evidence

1:50:01

of how he's affected in his face because if we look at if we see how he looked in

1:50:07

1861 and then how he looks in 1865 it's an extraordinary transformation so

1:50:14

it's definitely weighing heavily on his mind uh the extent to which he became

1:50:21

more um empathetic to african americans i don't know but he

1:50:27

certainly would have had a lot of people uh convincing him that he needed to

1:50:33

think more deeply about african-americans frederick douglass would have been one of them uh charles

1:50:39

sumner certainly would have been another black people were coming to the white house during the war especially when he

1:50:47

was talking about issuing the proclamation between september of 1862 and january 1st 1863 there were people

1:50:55

coming to the white house on one side saying don't do it you know it's not good for the country but others saying

1:51:02

this is absolutely what you need to do not just to save the country but to make

1:51:08

the country live up to the principles upon which it was founded and so he i i have no doubt is very much

1:51:16

influenced by that he's influenced by the contraband that he sees in

1:51:22

washington on a daily basis when he's coming from the soldier's home

1:51:27

to the white house he's passing down 7th street and he's passing one of those

1:51:32

contraband camps and they are greeting him as he goes by so he sees that firsthand

1:51:38

so i would suspect that yes he's very much influenced by all of that

1:51:50

african americans saw very differently the two areas freedom versus equality

1:51:57

lincoln certainly initially and most white americans saw freedom as meaning

1:52:03

the absence of slavery black people saw it as the stepping

1:52:09

stone to equality and they weren't willing to wait a hundred years to get it they wanted it immediately and yeah

1:52:17

historians have often said uh black people wanted their own land because that's the

1:52:23

measure of wealth when you are a rural people it's how much land you're owning

1:52:28

and how much you can take care of your families with that land the other was an education

1:52:35

because they were denied literacy as enslaved people and the third was political rights and

1:52:43

what normally happens is historians have had a tendency to say well political rights were at the top no it was not

1:52:51

we think it was political rights because the men and women who are writing during

1:52:57

this period and many respects are folk who want political rights and

1:53:03

so we assumed that that was the main thing black people want land first they

1:53:08

want independence they have been under the thumb of white men and women for

1:53:14

generations and generations they want the freedom the independence that comes

1:53:20

with land ownership literacy i count as second

1:53:25

because they understand that if they cannot read they cannot protect that

1:53:31

freedom that they have and the third is political rights they understand that they should have the

1:53:39

ability to govern just as white men are

1:53:44

but they definitely see freedom as very different i i always

1:53:51

have believed that it is black men and women who really teach

1:53:57

americans about what freedom truly is freedom was simply a word

1:54:03

you know in in in america's founding documents before black people put

1:54:09

meaning to it so they they wanted the ability to reestablish their own families to get

1:54:16

married legally a lot of that is happening at the end of the war because these people did not have legal

1:54:22

marriages they were not allowed to have legal marriages uh the education the

1:54:27

land ownership the sense of community that is established through a church so

1:54:33

religion was extremely important to them because that's how they learn to be leaders and these kinds of associations

1:54:40

are benevolent societies all of these things that's what freedom meant to them

1:54:46

that is not what it meant to the average white man and woman

1:54:57

harper was was among several women actually

1:55:02

who were very strong uh supporters of the union cause yes but of black

1:55:09

freedom first and foremost the union was second i mean

1:55:14

most black men and women are looking at how preservation of the union is going

1:55:20

to support their desire for freedom and francis harper was one of those women

1:55:26

you also have um and she had you know the ability to write so and and did and and so she was

1:55:33

important uh because of her ability to express her opinions you had other women

1:55:39

like harriet tubman and sojourner truth who were not writers who were not literate but in their own efforts they

1:55:47

did things so you had harriet tubman who during slavery had liberated uh all the

1:55:53

you know quite a few people from slavery from maryland primarily but in the war

1:55:59

effort itself harriet tubman was going to the south uh in incognito she she led

1:56:06

uh colonel montgomery's force up the uh kombahi river in south carolina where

1:56:12

she helped to liberate uh several hundred people so they're doing those kinds of things you've got

1:56:19

sojourner truth who's out you know who's who's um really campaigning for this to be a war

1:56:27

for uh for liberation of black people you've got charlotte fortin uh while the

1:56:33

war is going on going to south carolina to uh the sea islands to port royal and actually

1:56:40

helping to make the transition from slavery to freedom because the union army had

1:56:46

occupied that area uh early on so black women may not have been serving as

1:56:52

soldiers although a few did but for the most part black women are doing things that are very supportive of

1:57:00

the union cause including women like elizabeth keckley who's in washington

1:57:06

actually trying to collect money for the contraband cause

1:57:12

so those women are extremely important uh you've got mary elizabeth bowser for

1:57:17

god's sake who's in richmond in the confederate white house spying on

1:57:22

jefferson davis she's a woman who had been enslaved but had been freed and when the war came

1:57:30

her former owner asked her to come back and installed her in the confederate

1:57:36

white house as a spy so this is a woman you know who was loyal to the union and she has her

1:57:42

formerly enslaved woman come back and help with this cause so black women are

1:57:48

active during um during the antebellum period in the abolitionist movement but also

1:57:54

during the war itself and even after the war is over when black women men and women are pressing

1:58:01

for equality uh they're they're there black women are right there side by side

1:58:07

with men trying to get the job done

1:58:17

african-americans more than anything else other than reuniting their families and

1:58:25

having economic independence from white americans

1:58:30

wanted full-fledged citizenship that didn't mean freedom was not enough for

1:58:36

them that just to be just for slavery to be absent in their lives was not enough

1:58:43

they equated freedom with having the same rights as any american man or woman

1:58:51

and that meant having the right to having control over your children being

1:58:56

able to determine what was going to happen to your family freedom of movement education

1:59:03

land more than anything else political rights having a voice

1:59:10

in your government and being able to establish and control

1:59:15

your own institutions

1:59:23

the lincoln administration and northerners in general white northerners in general did not think

1:59:29

that black men were um brave enough courageous enough to stand up against

1:59:35

their former owners on the battlefield a lincoln even said that if you turn over our guns to these people they're going

1:59:42

to be in the hands of the confederacy within a few days so no we cannot enlist

1:59:48

them into the army of course he was not doing it as well because he didn't want to antagonize the border states with

1:59:55

that but once black men were allowed in as officially recognized you know

2:00:02

regularly organized and that's as a consequence of the emancipation proclamation they had been serving

2:00:08

before but these are in volunteer units in late 1862 but but with 1863 and the

2:00:15

emancipation proclamation lincoln is inviting them to come into the army

2:00:21

and these men serve admirably you've got someone like frederick douglass who's

2:00:27

recruiting them you've got marianne shad kerry who had been born in delaware and

2:00:32

she goes to canada and she establishes a newspaper she comes back home during the

2:00:37

war to recruit black men for the union army

2:00:42

they join they have to deal with such horrific circumstances they are given

2:00:48

broken down equipment and broken down horses they are put on fatigue duty they

2:00:54

they are not treated like soldiers they are punished as if they're still enslaved they don't get equal pay

2:01:02

and these men go on strikes some of them stack arms and refuse

2:01:08

to serve until they get equal pay and some of their leaders are executed as a consequence so these black men who are

2:01:16

risking their lives are not being treated as soldiers but when they go into battle

2:01:23

they respond to the threat in a way that no one can challenge and so an example

2:01:30

of that is the 54th at fort wagner those men

2:01:35

are facing uh tremendous odds there are many many more confederate soldiers

2:01:42

that are uh manning that fort and these black soldiers have to storm

2:01:48

it and against great odds they do it anyway many of them die

2:01:54

but they still made the effort and that's the important thing to

2:01:59

remember and they do it over and over again they they do it

2:02:04

at millikin's bin at port hudson uh they do it at newmarket uh there are

2:02:11

24 i believe 24 congressional medals that are given

2:02:16

uh it is extraordinary the level of support they give to the union army and

2:02:23

the union generals are reporting back to lincoln that if the union army has made

2:02:30

the advances that it had hoped to make a lot of that has to do with the

2:02:35

inclusion of these black soldiers that they are making a difference black men who are serving

2:02:42

in the union army whether they are formally enslaved or freeborn

2:02:49

are there for the same cause some of them some of them are doing it because

2:02:54

they really want to preserve the union but others are doing it because they

2:02:59

want a different america they know that until slavery ends

2:03:05

no one is going to advance so black men who were free who living in

2:03:11

the north even understand that they're not going to be full-fledged american citizens until

2:03:18

slavery ends and those men also in many instances have relatives

2:03:24

in the confederacy who are still enslaved some of these are men who had escaped years before

2:03:30

and left families behind and so so they're fighting for their own freedom

2:03:36

and equality and they're also fighting for the freedom and equality of the people they

2:03:42

left behind and they're fighting for america to live up to its promise

2:03:49

of equality for all people those are the true patriots

2:04:00

african-american soldiers had a tough time

2:04:05

in the war not just because they were soldiers and they could be shot and

2:04:10

killed but because the south the confederacy saw them

2:04:15

as slaves in insurrection as they said so it didn't matter if a black man had been

2:04:21

born free if his family had been free for decades if not centuries

2:04:27

it didn't matter if people had run away from slavery many

2:04:33

years before the confederacy considered all black men in union uniform

2:04:39

uh slaves in insurrection and so based on that they thought that they had

2:04:45

the the right to shoot them on site or to enslave them and and sell

2:04:53

them uh didn't matter if they were runaways or not and so fort pillow is an example

2:05:00

of that that idea to the extreme so you have a fort that's actually um

2:05:08

held by black men and white men as well i think

2:05:13

we sometimes forget that black men were not the only men who were murdered

2:05:19

at that fort but black men were certainly shot down in large numbers by a group

2:05:26

under the uh guidance under the command of nathan bedford forest who goes on to

2:05:32

be uh intimately involved in the organizing of the clan

2:05:39

and so that incident where black men are attempting with the

2:05:45

men at the fourth the union men at the fort are attempting to surrender and they are shot down they're not allowed

2:05:52

to surrender it becomes a horrific reminder to americans of the plight

2:06:01

that black men must endure who are dawning are the union blue and so black

2:06:08

soldiers who remember that they march into battle with the battle cry remember fort pillow

2:06:16

it is an incident that is very uh much

2:06:21

on the minds of americans in the north and frederick douglass had talked with

2:06:28

lincoln about doing something about that confederate policy that you could not

2:06:34

allow the confederacy to treat men who are serving the union

2:06:40

so horribly and what happens is lincoln does issue

2:06:46

uh lincoln does agree that um for every uh black soldier who is killed

2:06:54

uh a a white soldier would be killed that's not what's happening but it

2:07:00

certainly does give the confederacy pause and at the time

2:07:06

i believe robert e lee's son is being held in a union prisoner of war camp so

2:07:13

it it it definitely gets the attention of southerners

2:07:23

butler is an interesting figure a lot of historians

2:07:29

dislike him if historians are allowed to do that certainly

2:07:35

he did the right thing when he declared those three men who came to the fort as

2:07:42

contraband of war and then took in the the women and children as well but

2:07:47

butler when he was in maryland was also offering um if i'm remembering correctly

2:07:52

uh it may have been it may have been mcclellan now not butler but but butler was not

2:07:59

a favorite of many in the union during that period

2:08:04

but he did some things right uh he he certainly understood the value

2:08:11

of the use of black troops uh as did many of the the union

2:08:17

commanders initially they may not have wanted to be assigned to um a group of black soldiers you know

2:08:24

in the in the u.s colored troops some actually requested it but others did not

2:08:29

others were assigned but you had people like butler who recognized the value of

2:08:36

black men as soldiers i i'm reminded that um when before the army was um

2:08:43

was was integrated uh and patton was asked about what he thought about you

2:08:50

know having a black men serve under him and his cons his uh comment apparently

2:08:56

was i don't care what color they are as long as they can kill those sobs you

2:09:01

know across the line so you had you had people like that who simply wanted warm

2:09:08

bodies who could fight uh who didn't look at color first but looked at the

2:09:14

fighting spirit and the ability uh to contribute something to the war effort

2:09:26

things are not looking good for lincoln in early 1864. he really was concerned

2:09:32

that he was going to lose that election in fact he was so concerned about it he called frederick douglass in and asked

2:09:40

douglas to devise a plan that would help him get

2:09:45

the people out of the confederacy that he had freed because he understood

2:09:50

that if he lost the election then the next person would be much more willing

2:09:56

to compromise with the confederacy and that slavery would you know they

2:10:01

would come back into the union with slavery intact and so he wanted to

2:10:06

make sure that those people who were uh considered free in the proclamation

2:10:13

would be able to get out now he wins the election and that's not necessary but at

2:10:19

the time that he brings douglas in he's very concerned

2:10:24

about whether or not he's going to win uh the election there's so many issues in the north

2:10:31

that are facing him uh there's so many people who are against his re-election

2:10:37

uh he has not been a popular president you know we sometimes think because he's so revered today everybody loved him

2:10:43

they did not uh and had he not been assassinated i'm not so sure that he would be seen

2:10:50

as as our greatest president today i think that had something to do with

2:10:56

elevating his stature too strangely enough but i i think he legitimately was

2:11:02

concerned about not winning but he does win

2:11:07

first of all i think because the soldiers understood that the cause was just

2:11:13

uh because enough northerners understood that he had led them

2:11:19

to this point and the war was turning around too so the union was beginning to win some battles so they were seeing uh

2:11:27

the possibility that the war could end with the union being victorious

2:11:33

the soldiers helped tremendously you had people like frederick douglass however who were still trashing him i

2:11:40

mean he lincoln brings douglas in and tells him you know i may lose this election uh so

2:11:47

i need your help but it's in part two to let douglas know you need to quiet

2:11:52

things down a bit you need to stop criticizing me so much because you might have someone in the presidency who

2:11:58

you're going to like even less so uh it is a big deal that he wins in

2:12:04

1864. lincoln had no confidence that he would be re-elected he understood that many

2:12:11

people did not approve of how he was prosecuting the war

2:12:16

they were upset about his denial of civil liberties to people he was

2:12:22

having people locked up who were telling uh the population that they shouldn't

2:12:28

join the union army his administration was concerned about people who were speaking out against the

2:12:36

government they were especially upset the north was especially upset

2:12:41

over the emancipation proclamation many americans did not agree with that

2:12:47

executive order by lincoln um that presidential decree

2:12:53

many of them told him he needed to rescind it that the war would drag on because southerners would never forgive

2:13:00

him for what he had done there and lincoln always said that he had made

2:13:06

a promise and the promise having been made must be kept

2:13:11

and he also felt that he owed something to the african-american soldier by this time

2:13:17

black men were serving in significant numbers in the union army and navy and

2:13:23

lincoln was hearing from his generals in the field that they were really making a difference and so he understood

2:13:30

that the country owed a debt to these soldiers in fact he writes a letter to a

2:13:36

friend in illinois as early as august of 1863

2:13:41

where he's telling them you say that you won't fight for uh for

2:13:47

negro freedom uh well it looks like they're willing to fight for you and the statement that he makes at the very end

2:13:54

of that letter is so extraordinary because he says to them the war will be over soon and at the end

2:14:01

of this war there will be some black men who will be able to hold

2:14:07

their heads high and remember that they had helped to preserve the union and there will be

2:14:13

some white men who will have to hang their heads because they will have to remember that their actions tried to

2:14:21

hinder it so he certainly understood that he owed a debt to african americans

2:14:27

but he wasn't certain if he was going to win that election

2:14:33

uh and ex it's extraordinary that he did and he got the support

2:14:40

in large measure from the soldiers so even though these were people whose lives were being endangered they

2:14:47

recognized that the cause was just and this is a cause that's not just

2:14:53

about union now it's also about freedom for enslaved people and that is

2:15:01

truly an extraordinary outcome mcclellan had always been

2:15:07

a problem for lincoln because first of all he thought so much of himself and his abilities but he was

2:15:14

never able to move forward in terms of really executing uh the way that lincoln

2:15:22

felt that he should have um mcclellan was just the opposite of lincoln uh in

2:15:29

many ways uh certainly had no regard for the freedom of african-americans he

2:15:35

certainly would not have considered our slavery a moral issue and was willing to support

2:15:42

the south it was not unusual that mcclellan would oppose lincoln

2:15:51

as the democratic candidate he certainly represented

2:15:56

the interest of democrats in the north and to a large extent in the south as well by the time

2:16:04

of course he's running against lincoln he has been removed from

2:16:10

the union command because lincoln had become so very frustrated with him

2:16:15

mcclellan never seemed to want to move forward even when he won a battle he was

2:16:22

not willing to use that to take the next step and at least in terms of warfare lincoln

2:16:29

was not willing to wait he felt that it was not time to be cautious he had he

2:16:36

had spent the first couple of years trying to convince the south to come

2:16:42

back to the union so that the war could end but once he realized that that was not

2:16:47

going to happen he was more than willing to push the war forward in whatever way

2:16:53

was necessary and mcclellan was never willing to follow

2:16:58

his directions uh in that regard and so the two men had very different views of

2:17:04

how the war should be prosecuted but also what america should look like it was a it was a difference in terms of

2:17:11

what america's future should be mcclellan was willing to see america

2:17:16

reunited with slavery intact lincoln was not at least by 1864 he certainly was

2:17:23

not because he knew that slavery was was central to what the

2:17:30

issues were in the country and he knew that if it remained then

2:17:36

even if there was a compromise the issue would come up sometime in the future

2:17:41

over and over again

2:17:48

gosh the second inaugural address with malice toward none with charity for

2:17:53

all it's it says it all it really does the fact that somebody could

2:17:59

could actually think that after those bloody years of war

2:18:07

when over 700 000 people were killed you know we've upped the number it used

2:18:12

to be six hundred and twenty thousand it's now we we estimate over seven hundred thousand people were killed

2:18:19

but he still had this feeling that

2:18:25

the country was responsible for slavery and it was god's retribution

2:18:31

the war was god brought the war because america had allowed this to happen

2:18:38

and so he saw the north as being just as guilty as the south and so the

2:18:45

war is over and he's saying you know or it's about to be over and he's saying we have to

2:18:52

come together we cannot uh blame one more than the other and we

2:18:59

have to take care of those people who fought on both sides that's magnanimous

2:19:06

i couldn't have done it but he was a bigger man than me i guess but uh those

2:19:12

words i think are so powerful a lot of people think that the gettysburg address

2:19:18

is great it doesn't compare with the second inaugural address and especially that ending

2:19:24

lincoln's second inaugural address is to me the most important speech he

2:19:31

ever gave i know everyone's in love with the gettysburg address because it was

2:19:36

short and sweet and to the point but lincoln's second inaugural address spoke volumes about what he felt about

2:19:43

the country's responsibility for slavery the country's responsibility not just

2:19:49

the south's responsibility so he's he's saying god brought this war

2:19:55

to america because america had failed in its purpose

2:20:02

and so as a consequence the the nation was paying the price

2:20:08

i wouldn't see that as any kind of indication that lincoln believed that

2:20:13

black people should have reparations for the

2:20:19

generations for the centuries of slavery he was talking in that address

2:20:24

about america's responsibility and that you don't just blame one part

2:20:31

of the nation for that

2:20:39

enslaved people whether they had experienced you don't have to experience freedom to know what

2:20:47

freedom is you can be enslaved and understand what

2:20:52

freedom is and so enslaved people and freeborn black people

2:21:00

understood that america could be a different place

2:21:05

that it could be a better place lincoln talked about moving toward a more perfect union

2:21:12

understanding that the country would never be perfect but that we should always be moving in that

2:21:19

direction and so i think enslaved people and freeborn african-americans

2:21:24

understood that better than the average white americans who had never been enslaved and so if you've never lost

2:21:32

your freedom if you if if you're in a situation where you never had your

2:21:37

freedom you know it's it's very different and so people who had been born free

2:21:43

in america who were white who had always had privilege could not possibly understand

2:21:51

what freedom really meant to a group of people who had never had it so if we talk about america being the

2:22:00

special place it was african-americans who defined what that was it was african-americans

2:22:07

who defined what freedom really should mean in a country that was founded on those

2:22:14

principles

2:22:21

lincoln being able to resist those who suggested to him

2:22:27

pressured him even to uh relig on the proclamation to to rescind

2:22:34

it that he was a very principled person but also that he understood

2:22:41

what the issue was that was dividing the nation and even more than humanitarian concerns

2:22:48

lincoln was about fixing the nation once and for all and

2:22:53

so he truly believed that slavery was at the crux of the problems that divided

2:22:59

the country and so no he was not willing to give that up to rescind the

2:23:05

proclamation would not have resolved the problems that the nation faced and he

2:23:11

understood that it was a big gamble but he was willing to take it certainly lincoln believed that a debt

2:23:17

was owed to black soldiers but i think more than that

2:23:23

was the belief that you can only fix the nation by getting rid of slavery i think

2:23:28

it would have been difficult for him to just simply rescind the proclamation after what black men had done to help

2:23:36

the union but if he saw it as a possibility to bring the nation back together

2:23:43

and to strengthen it he would have been willing to do that but certainly by this point

2:23:50

there was no way that he was going to to do that he understood what had to be

2:23:55

done there was only one solution left that would really make sure that the

2:24:00

nation would not have problems down the line and that would be to hold fast

2:24:05

to the proclamation and to eventually push the constitutional amendment as well so it the two had to go hand in

2:24:12

hand the proclamation by itself would not have been sufficient because first of all not everybody was touched by the

2:24:19

proclamation there were 830 000 people who were not included in the proclamation some of them got their

2:24:25

freedom as a consequence of missouri and maryland

2:24:31

ending slavery before the constitutional amendment was

2:24:37

ratified maryland even before uh the constitutional amendment was uh the bill

2:24:43

was passed by the house but uh lincoln understood that you had to have that constitutional

2:24:51

amendment that would not just end slavery but would outlaw it forever

2:25:02

we need to be reminded that lincoln was not very active

2:25:08

in the initial push for the 13th amendment in fact he was

2:25:13

quite silent during the early period when it was going through the senate and

2:25:19

it passed the senate without major problems it got stuck in the house it failed the

2:25:25

first time in the house of representatives and lincoln was not

2:25:31

much involved in that but by the summer of 1864

2:25:36

lincoln was ready to push it i think i don't know that it's a

2:25:42

consequence of uh any great moral epiphany or not i think the the

2:25:49

moral thing was always there i i have never doubted that he hated slavery i it's

2:25:56

just that he was willing to allow it to last longer than the

2:26:02

average african-american was willing to allow it to last but i think that

2:26:07

lincoln recognized that a constitutional amendment was necessary he knew when he issued the

2:26:14

emancipation proclamation that that wasn't the end of slavery all it did was it freed those people who were in the

2:26:22

states still in rebellion there was nothing that prevented former owners from re-enslaving people

2:26:30

or or establishing the institution all over again with a new set of people

2:26:35

he understood that uh and i think eventually he came to the realization

2:26:41

that the only way you ensure that slavery is never going

2:26:46

to be a factor in american life again is to have a constitutional amendment

2:26:54

ratified and so in 1864 he's pushing it and he's doing it you

2:27:01

know at the the convention he wants to make sure that that's a part of the platform he's doing everything he can to

2:27:08

have it ratified even before the new congress comes in after the election he

2:27:13

wasn't even sure he was going to be re-elected i mean and there were people who agreed with him

2:27:20

that he probably wouldn't be re-elected but he wanted that amendment ratified

2:27:27

but i think it's because he realized that the country couldn't go through another war like that and that as long

2:27:33

as slavery existed there was going to be that division and so you take that away

2:27:40

by um pass it by ratifying this constitutional amendment people have always wondered why why

2:27:47

couldn't he wait you know what what even even though he had won the election why couldn't he wait until the new

2:27:53

congress came in and then just go on and push that through i mean he had

2:27:58

he pretty much well he had the votes eventually after all kinds of things to to get him there

2:28:05

but it was almost a kind of um impatience

2:28:11

to get it done and to get it done quickly i don't know if it was because he was

2:28:17

afraid that someone else would come in and take his place and not be as

2:28:23

committed or if he had premonitions of his own death who knows you know he just

2:28:29

may have realized that the end for him was was close at hand and he wanted to

2:28:35

do this last thing for the nation i could have been as simple as that

2:28:46

you have to have a constitutional amendment because the southern states or any other

2:28:52

state could have re-established slavery without the amendment lincoln's emancipation proclamation was

2:28:59

a military measure that no doubt would have been challenged in the courts once

2:29:05

the war was over and so those folk who were included in the proclamation who had

2:29:12

been able to get away to the union lines would have been okay

2:29:18

but the people still left in the confederacy would have had a problem and

2:29:23

and and the states could have simply reinstituted slavery after that so the

2:29:28

13th amendment was absolutely critical lincoln was very silent on the issue of

2:29:35

a constitutional amendment uh before the national union party convention

2:29:41

uh that uh a constitutional amendment was included in their platform and apparently lincoln had a role in making

2:29:49

sure that that occurred it's only after that um

2:29:56

convention is over uh and after he wins the election that

2:30:01

he really pushes you know puts his full weight behind trying to get that

2:30:07

amendment passed in the house of representatives uh and uh apparently he

2:30:12

does do some horse trading as all good politicians do we sometimes forget that

2:30:18

lincoln was a great politician he was not some country bumpkin who didn't know what he was doing he knew exactly what

2:30:25

he was doing he knew who to who to uh go to who to try to uh

2:30:31

pressure to support the amendment he knew who to

2:30:36

offer and what to offer to people to get their support

2:30:42

it has been alleged that some of what was done in his name

2:30:48

uh might have been illegal or extra-legal or or unethical or whatever

2:30:54

it wouldn't be the first time that a politician did that so we shouldn't be surprised that that happened uh we

2:31:01

probably will never know the extent to which illegal things occurred or unethical

2:31:06

things occurred that perhaps should not have been but certainly lincoln

2:31:12

leaned on people that he knew uh would be able to push this amendment

2:31:18

across the line

2:31:25

when he first came to the white house lincoln really felt that

2:31:31

he shouldn't touch slavery that he didn't he didn't believe he had the constitutional authority to do that

2:31:38

and he said he had no intention of doing that he simply wanted to preserve the union he wanted the south to come back

2:31:45

into the union so he was very conciliatory to southerners and in fact

2:31:52

fairly early on though he came to the conclusion that because slavery was the

2:31:57

issue it wasn't about states rights it wasn't about southerners thinking that they were

2:32:04

somehow being colonized by the united states and that they didn't have the

2:32:09

same rights as other people did it was about slavery and its expansion

2:32:16

specifically its expansion and so once he really understood that the issue

2:32:24

was going to remain as long as slavery did he started

2:32:30

pressuring perhaps that's too strong a word encouraging

2:32:36

the southern states the border states uh maryland delaware kentucky and missouri

2:32:42

those four slave-holding states that had remained in the union while their sister slave holding states

2:32:50

joined the confederacy he tried to convince those four that if they started

2:32:57

to end slavery on their own then the confederacy would understand

2:33:02

that it would never get any larger and they might come to their senses and return to the union

2:33:08

but the slave-holding states those border states never did they never

2:33:14

attempted to end slavery themselves at least not at that point in time

2:33:19

and so lincoln realized by the summer of 1862 that he would have to do something

2:33:26

himself now congress is already doing its part they're passing the the first

2:33:31

and second confiscation act the first one in 1861 the second one in the summer

2:33:38

of 1862 uh and generals union generals in the field are trying to do their part and

2:33:44

lincoln is saying no he's vetoing what they're attempting to do because what they're doing is trying to uh free

2:33:52

enslaved people in certain areas of the south that are now under union

2:33:57

occupation uh so lincoln decides that he's going to have to do something

2:34:03

he finds this he he understands that uh the constitution allows him in a time

2:34:09

of war to do what is what is necessary if it's a rebellion he can do whatever

2:34:14

is necessary as commander-in-chief to quell the revolt and that includes

2:34:20

confiscating or destroying property and so he decides that because enslaved

2:34:27

laborers are so critical to what the what the confederacy is

2:34:32

doing because they're still growing the food uh they're still growing the cotton

2:34:38

are they they're throwing up breast works and other fortifications for the confederacy not because they want to

2:34:45

because this is what they're doing because they're enslaved people they're being told they have to do this and in

2:34:50

fact the confederate government requires planters to do this and the southern

2:34:56

planters are not pleased with this so speak of states rights certainly

2:35:02

the the national government and the confederacy all of a sudden believe that

2:35:07

it should have the authority over these people's property so that's something we really need to think about um so lincoln

2:35:15

um decided that he did have the authority to issue this proclamation under

2:35:21

military necessity not for any kind of moral reasons

2:35:27

not for any humanitarian concerns but out of military necessity and that is

2:35:34

how the emancipation proclamation comes about and of course by 1864

2:35:40

by the time of the um convention the national union convention

2:35:47

because this is a party national union party convention because this is what the republican party is calling itself

2:35:53

by that a time it's a combination of these different groups but so by that time

2:36:00

lincoln realizes that a constitutional amendment is necessary the senate has already

2:36:07

done so has already passed that measure the house of representatives has not

2:36:13

done so yet and after the election lincoln throws his whole weight behind it but before

2:36:19

the election he was very concerned that he would not win re-election and i

2:36:25

think he was a little cautious about the constitutional amendment because of that

2:36:36

lincoln is beginning to get there at the end of his life because three days before he's assassinated he does talk

2:36:44

about extending voting rights to the more educated i've always hated that

2:36:52

yeah the more educated nobody is checking to see if white men are educated before they're given the right

2:36:58

to vote but black men have to be educated i know what he's talking about is those mulattos and new orleans who

2:37:07

had property and education and standing in the community that were sometimes

2:37:12

greater than their white neighbors and they're writing to lincoln saying we want our rights too

2:37:18

uh so i i understand uh what he's doing there the other uh category of people he

2:37:25

wants to extend uh voting rights to are the veterans of of the civil war black veterans of

2:37:32

the civil war because he believes that debt is owed to them but

2:37:38

i would hope that eventually he would have come to the conclusion that all black people should have the

2:37:45

same voting rights as any white man who might not have spent

2:37:52

a day in school might not have been able to read or write in fact many of them

2:37:57

had to use their ex because they they couldn't sign their own names so hopefully he was moving in that

2:38:03

direction he seemed to be moving in that direction but we'll never know

2:38:14

people are uh sort of turned out on the land because uh in the in the sea

2:38:21

islands and in those areas uh between uh south carolina

2:38:27

and northern florida southern south carolina and northern florida

2:38:32

they are turned out because when the union army arrives fairly early on

2:38:39

by november of 1861 and occupy some of that area

2:38:45

the the white planters flee leaving behind large numbers of enslaved

2:38:52

people uh and so they are gathered up into camps

2:38:59

initially but what happens is uh some

2:39:04

right-minded people see this as an opportunity to uh create um an experiment or to

2:39:11

create a model situation that will help uh african americans um make the

2:39:18

transition from slavery uh to freedom and so by the time that uh this you've

2:39:26

got these people who are left out on the land uh they the government is having a very difficult

2:39:32

time taking care of themselves when sherman comes through you have an even greater situation

2:39:40

because black people start following his army they are trying to find work they're

2:39:46

trying to find some way to feed their families so they're following sherman as he makes his march to the sea sherman

2:39:54

who was not someone who was fond of african americans and that's giving him more

2:40:00

credit even than he deserves uh wanted to find a way to get rid of them and so what he does is he does

2:40:08

issue special order 15. uh he's allowed to do this of course he's he's uh

2:40:13

lincoln gives him this uh authority uh he actually um

2:40:20

sets aside lands that have been abandoned uh between

2:40:25

southern south carolina and northern florida and the land is set back 30

2:40:30

miles i believe from from the water and all of that land is to be used by

2:40:36

african americans they are able to settle that area they're able to work the land if they stay on the land for

2:40:44

three years then they are in a position to uh to possess it

2:40:49

and so the 40 acres is the amount of land that is

2:40:55

given to each family the mule comes in because the army gives uh some of these families

2:41:03

old broken down draft animals that the the army can no longer use

2:41:08

and the assumption is of course you're going to need at least one of those draft animals to

2:41:14

actually cultivate 40 acres of land anyway so the 40 acres and the mule was

2:41:21

what african americans saw as the promise to them from this land that had been confiscated

2:41:28

by southerners who had fled the area and who hadn't paid their taxes remember

2:41:35

lincoln and the his administration see the south as still in the union so

2:41:42

they're supposed to continue to be paying taxes like other americans are and so they're not paying taxes on the

2:41:48

land the land is confiscated and handed over to black people who are who have

2:41:55

possessory title to the land they don't have permanent title yet but they expect

2:42:00

to get that in a few years lincoln of course is assassinated andrew johnson

2:42:06

comes in who has no respect or concern or humanitarian sympathy for african

2:42:14

americans at all and he returns that land to the people

2:42:19

who had waged war against the u.s government black people are absolutely

2:42:25

devastated by this because they think of it as their land they had been cultivating that land not just during

2:42:32

the war but of course before the war even occurred for decades and so when we look at

2:42:40

the issue of african-american wealth or the uh the

2:42:46

struggles the challenges that some african-americans face today we can look back at those kinds of

2:42:52

things that the u.s government did that didn't help african americans make

2:43:00

that transition the land ownership would have been critical to the ability of

2:43:06

african americans to succeed as individuals and as communities and the

2:43:12

government did not support that redistribution

2:43:22

okay to consider what would have happened had the south one to one the war

2:43:29

is counterfactual actually and historians don't like to engage in that kind of

2:43:35

thought but what the heck let's think about it if the south had won

2:43:40

slavery could have lasted into the 20th century historians i used to say that slavery

2:43:46

was dying out because if you can't expand the institution into new territory where

2:43:54

the land is still still has some kind of potency so has

2:43:59

nutrients in the soil then slavery cannot last but we need to

2:44:04

understand that slavery was not just an economic institution it was an

2:44:10

institution for social control as well and so as long as

2:44:16

southerners wanted to control the african-american population they

2:44:21

would have kept slavery in place and we see that happening after the

2:44:26

civil war they do everything they can to keep african-americans under their thumb

2:44:33

including not allowing them to progress because they would didn't want to sell them land they didn't want them educated

2:44:40

they certainly didn't want them involved in politics and so there's no reason to assume that

2:44:46

slavery would not have gone into the 20th century at least

2:44:57

it's interesting that there's been a debate for so long about

2:45:02

who was responsible for freeing enslaved people was it lincoln

2:45:08

was it enslaved people themselves was it the efforts of the abolitionist my argument has always been

2:45:15

the confederacy needs a little bit of that credit as well because if they hadn't formed if they had trusted

2:45:21

lincoln when he said he was not going to touch their favorite institution

2:45:28

slavery probably would have continued so more as much as anything else

2:45:34

they were responsible for ending the institution that they cherished

2:45:45

we must remember that even in washington the capital of the

2:45:51

union and in the north in general there were people who were southern sympathizers

2:45:58

and who hated lincoln um an example of that of course is as as

2:46:05

he's coming through maryland and the death threats that he's getting uh these

2:46:10

i mean maryland would have seceded from the union if lincoln had not sort of had

2:46:16

it occupied i mean you know it he sort of stopped that immediately because he didn't want a situation where the

2:46:22

capital of the nation was surrounded by confederate states and so he didn't

2:46:28

allow maryland to secede but there were many union sympathizers in maryland in

2:46:36

baltimore in southern maryland uh wherever uh john wilkes booth and the

2:46:43

assassination that occurs uh after lincoln's um

2:46:49

second inauguration is his second term it supposedly was brought on

2:46:57

uh by the fact that lincoln three days before had talked about black voting

2:47:02

rights for some men but booth had initially planned to kidnap him

2:47:08

uh not to kill him but after he heard the speech and supposedly he was in the audience when the speech was was given

2:47:16

uh he said um using uh a terrible word that will not

2:47:22

be mentioned here he said you know uh inward rights uh we'll have to kill him

2:47:27

for that uh so but booth was a southern sympathizer

2:47:33

long before lincoln said those words uh the fact that someone as well known as john

2:47:40

wilkes booth and as popular as booth would have actually done that would have

2:47:46

killed the president shows you the strength of that southern uh sentiment among

2:47:54

people who were still supposedly a part of the union there was so much

2:47:59

that was happening in washington itself people were being arrested because they were spies they were very famous women

2:48:06

spies in dc who were sort of courting the generals at least inviting them to parties and

2:48:13

then trying to extract information from them about

2:48:19

union movements and so forth and these are women who are living in washington who supposedly are loyal

2:48:26

to the union so this kind of thing is happening lincoln was was

2:48:33

vilified while he was president you know he probably

2:48:38

no doubt a lot of his his um

2:48:44

the feelings about him uh the the good feelings about him uh are the consequence of him having

2:48:52

been assassinated at a time when there was so much

2:48:57

that was at stake at a time when he was expected to unite the country so

2:49:06

that opportunity was taken away from him and i think that we he's beloved because

2:49:12

of that had he survived had he not been assassinated

2:49:18

he probably wouldn't be as beloved as he is today i think

2:49:24

that it's it's about what could he have become what could the nation have become

2:49:29

would we still be struggling with black rights now

2:49:34

more than a century and a half later had he survived we don't know

2:49:40

we don't know but it's interesting to think about

2:49:51

we have to remember that lincoln was the first president to be assassinated

2:49:58

it was such an unusual situation uh the fact that he was shot on good

2:50:05

friday sort of put him on the people started thinking of him in relationship in

2:50:11

relation to christ and christ's um crucifixion uh the fact that he

2:50:18

is assassinated at the very instance that he has won the war

2:50:25

he has gone through so much and then he doesn't even live very long to enjoy the

2:50:31

victory that has a major impact on people and i

2:50:36

think people also recognize that he was someone who truly did care about the

2:50:41

country and did what he could to try to pull it back together

2:50:49

and and of course the formerly enslaved also had a role to

2:50:55

play in his deification uh he becomes a great emancipator

2:51:01

image at least in part because of how formerly enslaved people viewed him

2:51:07

they saw him as their savior as the man who was going to guarantee

2:51:13

their freedom and now he snatched away from them and i think the rest of the country felt that way as well it is

2:51:20

interesting that this is an instance in american history where

2:51:25

you've got black people and white people able to grieve over the same thing able

2:51:32

to mourn over a single individual that speaks volumes about lincoln's role

2:51:39

and how people viewed him

2:51:46

lincoln and douglas um had an interesting relationship i know

2:51:52

some historians like to call it a friendship i don't call it a friendship once when two people have met only three

2:51:58

times that's not quite what's going on there i think they had a healthy respect for

2:52:05

each other douglas initially

2:52:11

has some concerns about lincoln he's not sure that lincoln

2:52:16

is the right candidate in 1860 for the republican party

2:52:22

uh but he thinks there's a possibility he trusts the party perhaps more than he trusted lincoln and there are many

2:52:29

african-americans who don't see lincoln as as the right candidate uh

2:52:35

hezekiah ford douglas for instance no relation to douglas thinks that uh

2:52:40

lincoln is not going to be good for african americans uh but lincoln when

2:52:46

lincoln does win douglas becomes disappointed because in lincoln's first inaugural address he's

2:52:53

very conciliatory to the south and douglas wanted him to say something

2:52:59

very positive about what he was going to do about slavery lincoln is not there yet he's not willing to do that in fact

2:53:05

he even says that he's willing to support all of the domestic institutions of the south that

2:53:12

includes the fugitive slave act and douglas and other african-americans and

2:53:19

abolitionist abolitionists in general are livid about that as lincoln continues to delay doing

2:53:28

anything about slavery at a time when it seems like a perfect opportunity since these

2:53:36

people have left the union douglas becomes more and more upset with

2:53:41

lincoln and says some very nasty things about him uh it is amazing what people

2:53:47

could get away with in those days um and so only when lincoln issues the

2:53:55

preliminary emancipation proclamation does douglas start warming up to him

2:54:01

and uh douglas knows by the time of the um the actual emancipation that's issued on

2:54:09

january 1st 100 days later he sees that not everybody is being

2:54:15

included in the proclamation but douglas says maryland cannot last long as a slave

2:54:23

state if slavery does not exist in virginia and so he understands that this

2:54:29

is an opening of the door and so he becomes more favorable toward lincoln

2:54:34

he's very much involved in trying to encourage black men to join the union

2:54:39

army his his men to arm speech is exactly that you need to fight for your

2:54:46

own freedom he's very important in that respect douglas goes to the white house

2:54:53

uh to complain he actually sees lincoln three times the first time is to

2:54:59

complain that black soldiers this is after emancipation he goes in august of

2:55:04

1863 to complain that black men black soldiers are not having the same rights

2:55:10

as white men they don't have the same pay they don't have the same equipment they're not being allowed to work as

2:55:17

soldiers initially they're doing fatigue duty and so lincoln says to him

2:55:23

i understand that but we had a hard time just getting them into the army so be patient

2:55:30

all of this will happen and it does eventually it by 1864.

2:55:36

the second time uh and the first time that douglas goes to the white house you

2:55:42

know he it's not like he has an appointment or anything he shows up lincoln finds out that he's there and

2:55:47

lincoln takes him over all of these white men who are enraged that this black man is allowed to come in to see

2:55:54

lincoln ahead of them so lincoln appreciated the fact that douglas was

2:56:00

this very important figure in the african-american community and he had a platform douglas had his own newspaper

2:56:07

and he was writing a lot of interesting things about lincoln so i think lincoln wanted to keep him placated as well uh

2:56:14

the second time he goes to the white house lincoln summons him and that's the time when lincoln says i may not win the

2:56:21

election i need you to help me devise a plan to get these people out of the south before

2:56:27

they're caught behind enemy lines and the third time is when douglas

2:56:33

uninvited goes to the white house for the inaugural reception and he's not

2:56:39

allowed in because he's a black man and lincoln finds out that he's at the door

2:56:45

and tells them to let him come in and greets him as his friend and asked

2:56:51

him about what he thought of the speech and douglas says it was a sacred um

2:56:59

effort and so if that's a friendship then that's what they had but more likely it

2:57:06

was two people who had actually similar experiences in terms of a poor

2:57:12

upbringing lincoln was never enslaved although some people suggest that that

2:57:17

might be why he was so um uh so willing to um accept freedom for

2:57:23

uh black people that he felt like he was it was enslaved by his father i that's another issue i don't know about that

2:57:30

but i think that lincoln appreciated the fact that douglas was a self-made man

2:57:38

just as lincoln was and so the two men did have a respect

2:57:43

for each other although they were adversaries as well on numerous occasions but mrs lincoln thought that

2:57:51

lincoln cared enough about douglas that she gave douglas one of lincoln's

2:57:56

favorite canes after lincoln was assassinated

2:58:01

so no real friendship but definitely a respect for each other douglas's

2:58:06

attitude about lincoln changes as lincoln changes

2:58:13

as lincoln becomes more involved with black freedom

2:58:19

douglas warms up to him but certainly in 1864

2:58:25

douglas does not feel that lincoln is doing enough and so he starts back on the road to

2:58:32

criticizing him but not so much that he's not willing to consider

2:58:38

lincoln's uh request that he come up with a plan to get those folk who had been enslaved

2:58:46

out of the south who were who were touched by the proclamation or should have been touched by the proclamation

2:58:57

there was a great deal of um sorrow sorrow on the part

2:59:03

of african americans at lincoln's assassination because they thought in fact they said that the the

2:59:10

the black man's best friend has been murdered uh they really expected that he was

2:59:16

going to protect them as they made the transition from slavery to freedom

2:59:22

i'm a bit of a cynic okay uh i think given lincoln's desire

2:59:30

to reunite the nation and to allow bygones to be bygones i

2:59:36

don't know that black people would have been uh would have advanced as rapidly

2:59:44

under lincoln i i know i'm i'm this is counterfactual i mean i i historians

2:59:49

don't like like to do this this is a historical but i'm going to do it anyway because it's fun to think about what

2:59:55

would have happened um lincoln gives us some idea of where he

3:00:00

was going with reconstruction and so as early as late 1863

3:00:08

he's talking about what reconstruction might look like and at that point he's saying

3:00:15

um you know this is this is not gradual emancipation this is immediate

3:00:21

it's not really good you know i mean it's it's not good for the people who are losing their property and it's not

3:00:27

good for african americans either because after all these folk have never been free before as if you have have to

3:00:34

be free to know what freedom really is okay so he said that he was willing to accept

3:00:42

a situation where the the former master class and the

3:00:49

former slave could learn to live to establish a

3:00:54

new relationship and what he was talking about was something akin to apprenticeship

3:01:01

not full freedom in the sense that black people can come and go as they wish but a situation where perhaps black people

3:01:09

would have been working on the former plantations for their owners they would have had to be paid for their labor and

3:01:15

they couldn't be beaten and that kind of thing but it wouldn't have been something that i would see as

3:01:21

necessarily advantageous to black people that's problematic but at the same time

3:01:27

he's talking about education as well and he's saying black people need to be educated and he

3:01:33

does indicate that if the if the new association doesn't work if the

3:01:40

apprenticeship doesn't work for the few years he expected it to be in existence he would

3:01:46

step in to make sure that things were done properly i would hope that would have been the

3:01:52

case we'll never know but given the fact that he was tired i mean

3:02:00

historians have argued that if he hadn't been assassinated he probably would have killed himself because the the war

3:02:06

definitely took its toll on him i mean he looks horrible at the end of the war

3:02:12

because of the pressure uh he had to deal with with so much personal and

3:02:18

political and just seeing you know every day the the national cemeteries being filled

3:02:24

with the bodies of soldiers you know who didn't survive that had to weigh on him

3:02:30

tremendously but uh i think that the 14th and the 15th amendments

3:02:36

were were passed within that first decade of freedom because you had an incompetent president

3:02:45

in the white house in the form of andrew johnson and the radicals in congress the

3:02:50

republicans in congress decided to take advantage of that incompetence and pass

3:02:56

those measures had lincoln been there they would not have been able to do that

3:03:02

and i'm not so sure that lincoln would have been as willing to move that quickly i think eventually

3:03:09

he would have gotten there but given the fact that he was always very cautious i think it would have taken him a little

3:03:15

bit longer

3:03:23

i think americans as a people like to think of themselves ourselves i

3:03:31

guess as we are in a perfect nation

3:03:38

that never really had problems and if we had some little issues along the way those issues were

3:03:44

resolved and one of the biggest issues the issue of slavery

3:03:49

was resolved with the sacrifice of someone who was so caring

3:03:56

was so humane who cared so much about people who were enslaved and so a nation

3:04:04

who could create someone like an abraham lincoln obviously

3:04:11

must be special must be exceptional and so we need not

3:04:17

go back and deal with the issues that the country faced because they had all

3:04:22

been resolved because this great man you know pulled the nation back together

3:04:28

got rid of of slavery and we love him for that and so

3:04:35

problem solved uh there's there's nothing else wrong with the country we don't need to deal

3:04:41

with the legacy of slavery we don't need to deal with jim crow and discrimination

3:04:47

we don't need to deal with white supremacy and racism those things don't

3:04:53

exist because lincoln sacrificed himself we we like to see lincoln as the

3:05:01

evidence that america is perfect and so we revere him without flaws

3:05:09

um w.b du bois had written um a piece for the crisis magazine in 1922

3:05:17

where he talked about lincoln as a flawed character but he says at the end

3:05:23

he was big enough to be inconsistent he talks about his inconsistencies but that

3:05:29

even though he was inconsistent he still was a great man he was trashed for that i mean he really he had to go back and

3:05:37

say oh i'm so sorry you know i i know you think lincoln's perfect i wasn't trying to say that he was a bad guy but

3:05:44

that's the attitude that people have i remember doing a television program years and

3:05:50

years ago probably well in the 90s actually where i was just talking in

3:05:55

general about some of the complexities and i had a british lady who described

3:06:03

herself as such write to me and say how dare you say these things

3:06:08

about mr lincoln he freed your people so you should be grateful and i thought wow

3:06:15

you know what did i say that would have offended her uh but people don't like to hear any

3:06:22

criticism of lincoln at all and i think we do a disservice to him when we see him as his perfect figure who was up

3:06:30

there at the same level as christ that's not who he was that's not what he

3:06:35

claimed to be and i think he would be terribly offended that people saw him that way

3:06:41

i think the importance of lincoln as is the importance of any historical

3:06:46

figure is for us to understand exactly who they

3:06:52

were in all of their complexity i i think we do them a disservice when we

3:06:57

say they're one thing or the other these are human beings these are not stick figures these are not people who just

3:07:03

live in a vacuum these are people who have their own issues their own prejudices it's important especially to

3:07:11

understand lincoln and how he evolved because lincoln was a man of the south

3:07:16

he was a man of the 19th century he was a man who brought certain prejudices

3:07:22

to whatever he was doing but he was a man who could overcome some of those

3:07:28

things long enough to do the right thing and i think he becomes so much more important

3:07:33

to the nation as a symbol of what the nation can be and can do

3:07:39

when we look at him that way if we just said this is a perfect individual well

3:07:45

we can then just write him off and say well you know this is a fluke but if we see him as someone who was as

3:07:52

complex as he was who had these issues who who was torn obviously between doing

3:08:00

the moral thing and doing what he saw was right at the time for the country

3:08:05

and he was able to do both he was able uh however he did it and there is

3:08:11

argument about how he did um he was able to save the nation

3:08:16

and help get rid of slavery in the country and to me that is what's really

3:08:22

important about him that's why i've been interested in him for so many years not because he was the perfect lincoln but

3:08:28

because he wasn't

3:08:35

i always like the little statues of lincoln are with his son or just sitting

3:08:41

there it's the normal lincoln everyday guy

3:08:46

that's the person that most people could relate to and i think we do need to

3:08:52

view that more than we do the lincoln uh memorial is extremely important uh it's important because

3:08:59

it's a symbol for the nation of of equality of

3:09:04

opportunity of everybody having a chance to better themselves and it's a place a

3:09:09

rallying place for all of these groups that are trying to finish the work that lincoln had started and the nation had

3:09:16

started during that period so it's very important but these other little statues all over the country are important as

3:09:23

well and so i hope that we spend some time enjoying them and really seeing

3:09:30

what they're trying to say about the average man who's out there just trying

3:09:35

to live

3:09:42

edmonia lewis was a very interesting uh historical figure

3:09:48

we're not sure completely about her background she certainly identified herself

3:09:54

as a woman that was just not of african descent but of native american descent

3:10:00

as well i and certainly her appearance would suggest that that might be the case and

3:10:06

it would not have been ordinary strange at all for her to have had that kind of background

3:10:13

what's important about her is that she shows that

3:10:18

black people during a time of great struggle can do extraordinary things this is a

3:10:26

woman who was born free but she uh and she had certain advantages but

3:10:33

she's able to create art that is truly extraordinary and a lot of

3:10:41

that art is geared toward helping people see

3:10:47

the the greater complexity of african americans it was

3:10:52

so easy during that time to focus just on negative images or to

3:10:59

talk in great deal about slavery and the damage done

3:11:04

as a consequence of slavery her work however is beautiful uh and it does help us

3:11:11

understand the uh the lengths that that black people could achieve what they could

3:11:17

achieve if allowed to do that she received national acclaim one of her

3:11:23

pieces forever free is in the collection at howard

3:11:28

university and it's one of our most treasured pieces

3:11:39

you